KF doesn't target men, primarily, they find LOLcows everywhere.
As to "being a stretch" to say transactivism is male supremacism in action, well, when men are erased by being renamed "ejaculators" or "prostate havers"; when transmen are dominating sporting competitions against men half their age; when hundreds of transmen, many of whom h…
KF doesn't target men, primarily, they find LOLcows everywhere.
As to "being a stretch" to say transactivism is male supremacism in action, well, when men are erased by being renamed "ejaculators" or "prostate havers"; when transmen are dominating sporting competitions against men half their age; when hundreds of transmen, many of whom have been convicted of rape/sexual assault, petition to be moved to men's prisons, maybe I'll change my mind.
Trans-women are an extremely small percentage of the population, the main advocates of a lot of the policies in prisons, sports, and changing rooms in America (and most of the rest of the western world) are female women not men. Calling them a male-supremacist movement doesn't make any sense in this instance.
They're advocating for policies that harm women by allowing males with lady feelings to access previously single-sex spaces like prisons (which is a violation of the Third Geneva Conventions rules on how prisoners of war are supposed to be treated). It's a male supremacist movement bc the benefits of allowing males to join women's athletic teams, or use their bathrooms/changing rooms, benefits men & we've seen again and again that women's feelings on any of this really don't matter to anyone pushing these policies.
How are women benefiting from making it impossible for us to have boundaries? Women are not a threat to men in the same way that men are a threat to women. Predatory males are taking advantage of gender self-ID. Data from prisons shows a greater % of trans-identified males are convicted sex offenders than compared w/ the general male population. Either (1) trans-identified males are more likely to be sex offenders, or more likely (2) predatory males are using the system to access female spaces. Neither option is good but if we're seeing that play out in prisons, where ppl should have an incentive to be on good behavior, I'm guessing the predatory males are gaming the system. So whether or not the population of TIMs is an "extremely small percentage," the cohort of sexually violent men overall now being given access to female spaces by saying the Magic Pronouns will cause harm to a greater # of women, and that risk should not be taken lightly.
Fair enough I wasn't arguing based on the reality of the movement but based on the way we should talk about it, maybe in effect it is a male-supremacist movement.
I think part of the problem is that people are getting tripped up on the fact that the outcomes of the trans rights movement benefit male supremacism, but a lot of the social enforcers are women. One doesn’t cancel out the other though.
One of the most irritating aspects of popular transactivism over the past few years has been its adherents’ refusal to lay out their terms, talk about outcomes, and have a proper debate over whether the ends do actually justify the means. Any attempt to do that has been shut down with “no debate,” and anyone who attempts to follow logical outcomes is a “transphobe” - even if the questioner is trans. The fact that a pile of women are helping to enforce this and obediently refusing to think through outcomes does seem to indicate that women can fall prey to social pressure quite easily, but it doesn’t mean the outcomes themselves don’t benefit the type of men those women would normally oppose. It’s a maddening paradox.
I think that what may answer the question is class, which I personally believe is a better way to describe the more extreme aspects of trans-activism. In which largely upper class and upper-middle class socially liberal women (and men) make policies that will largely affect working class women who are more likely to go to prison and more likely to use community public swimming pools. They then say they are doing this to help the marginalized.
By extreme elements I mean self-ID in changing rooms and prisons.
Agree 100% about the prisons though to be fair about the pools, it is already happening at private pools as well.
I think the issue is who is marginalized, and whose marginalization, well, matters more. So. A poor woman who goes to the public pool and changes in the women's room and is appalled to see someone with a penis there. Or is it the penis haver? Or is it both? And if it is both, who matters more?
Like. A poor black woman who was abused by her ex husband and truly feels unsafe around men. Or a black trans woman who was constantly beaten up by men? Their needs contradict each other.
But here is where it gets mote complicated. I completely understand trans women being afraid of men's spaces because it is dangerous for them. What I find galling now is that a lot of trans activists talk about women's spaces as being affirming for trans women. So. Sure a women's changing room for a trans woman who is in danger if she goes to the men's room. But why the women's room for someone who cane out as trans a week ago? Fucking crazy.
Finally. In terms of class. I do think most trans women are poor and marginalized. Bit does their needs outweigh those of poor and marginalized biological women?
Agree completely. To me, bottom line, there just isn't a way to make everyone happy here. If society wants to carve out space for trans people, it should not come out of women's spaces - they need a third space. In bathrooms, jails, pools, changing rooms, sports, everywhere. If Self ID is good enough, all the nonsense about "oh it's just a tiny % of people" goes out the window. My safety/comfort as a woman should trump a man's "affirmation" to feel like a woman. Every fucking time.
And honestly, if this was being dealt with in a normal, practical way, I doubt there would even be as much drama as there is. Sure there will always be a small number of people who are just bigots and hate trans people, but most of us women who question this stuff don't hate anyone. We just don't understand why we are constantly throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to these very important issues of safety, medical treatment of children, and our own sex-based rights and hard-fought privileges (like... the "women of the year" awards being given to men in dresses, etc.). That stuff is infuriating and illogical. Why are we expected to shut up and not be pissed off??
I have such mixed feelings as in grad school my internship was with an LGBTQ center and a few people were trans. This was in 2016 so the big thing wad bathrooms. And I sort of get the argument that special trans bathrooms is further stigmatizing. At the same time. I am not showering with a woman who last week was a 35 year old straight dude.
I dont know if you ever saw this video Meghan Murphy and this trans activist at a Calgary library. It was really interesting because at one point a woman stood up and asked a question abput her daughter. And the TRA said she wpuld answer "as a woman." I HATE this shit. Trans women should not be discriminated against. Should be treated with kindness and respect. But if you did not go through female puberty or didn't go because of health issues, then you are npt a woman. Even 10 years agp this was npt a question.
However the TRA did say something I found interesting. Which is that we have a right tp BE safe, not FEEL safe. Which I thought was a good point. OTH, by that logic. A 6 foot 2 250 pound dude who transitions - why the women's room at all then?
I would say means rooms women's rooms and gender neutral rooms.
What is the difference between BEING safe vs FEELING safe? And who were they referring to - women have that right, or trans women? How does one know in real time if they ARE safe or just FEEL safe? It's a clever sentence, but it doesn't actually mean anything... right?
There is a difference between being safe and feeling safe. Like. Many people feel safer in a car than on a plane, but in fact they are safer on the plane.
And I wasnt saying anything. The TFA was saying women have the right to be safe, not necessarily feel safe. Her implication being that when a large 6 foot tall recently transitioned trans woman uses the women's room, and some do not feel safe - that does not mean they actually are unsafe.
The analogy the TRA used was some women crossing the street when a black man walks by because they do not feel safe.
The problem I have is that too often women have been hurt or killed because they didn't feel comfortable bit never said said anything because they didn't want to be rude
Also. While the vast majority of trans women ARE safe, it is only men and trans women who rape women
And finally. I would have no issue with trans women in changing room if it were under the old system when it took a long time to actually transition, so that they had been socialized into womanhood. But with self ID? No.
But I did think it was a valid point that just because some women felt unsafe around trans women, it does npt mean they are.
Replacing sex with gender (where gender is defined by self-id) in all aspects of society is not the extreme position within the trans-activist community, it's the mainstream. The debate about this is happening all over the world, and not just in changing rooms and prisons, but wherever sex-segregation was the norm up until a few years ago: in college dorms, in all levels of sports, in children's camps, in lesbian bars/festivals/clubs, in hospital wards, in AA meetings and group therapy sessions.
Prioritizing gender over sex has profound implications, especially for women. While it may have more of an immediate, tangible impact in certain situations in which upper class women may not find themselves, eg a domestic violence shelter, the impact is rapidly spreading to many other areas of life.
I recommend you read Helen Joyce's book, Trans, or listen to one of her interviews (she's just been on Jordan Peterson's podcast.)
KF doesn't target men, primarily, they find LOLcows everywhere.
As to "being a stretch" to say transactivism is male supremacism in action, well, when men are erased by being renamed "ejaculators" or "prostate havers"; when transmen are dominating sporting competitions against men half their age; when hundreds of transmen, many of whom have been convicted of rape/sexual assault, petition to be moved to men's prisons, maybe I'll change my mind.
Transmen might have an edge when it comes to competitive shooting. For some reason, biological females tend to be better long-range shooters.
Most popular sports just don't align with biological females' advantages.
Trans-women are an extremely small percentage of the population, the main advocates of a lot of the policies in prisons, sports, and changing rooms in America (and most of the rest of the western world) are female women not men. Calling them a male-supremacist movement doesn't make any sense in this instance.
They're advocating for policies that harm women by allowing males with lady feelings to access previously single-sex spaces like prisons (which is a violation of the Third Geneva Conventions rules on how prisoners of war are supposed to be treated). It's a male supremacist movement bc the benefits of allowing males to join women's athletic teams, or use their bathrooms/changing rooms, benefits men & we've seen again and again that women's feelings on any of this really don't matter to anyone pushing these policies.
How are women benefiting from making it impossible for us to have boundaries? Women are not a threat to men in the same way that men are a threat to women. Predatory males are taking advantage of gender self-ID. Data from prisons shows a greater % of trans-identified males are convicted sex offenders than compared w/ the general male population. Either (1) trans-identified males are more likely to be sex offenders, or more likely (2) predatory males are using the system to access female spaces. Neither option is good but if we're seeing that play out in prisons, where ppl should have an incentive to be on good behavior, I'm guessing the predatory males are gaming the system. So whether or not the population of TIMs is an "extremely small percentage," the cohort of sexually violent men overall now being given access to female spaces by saying the Magic Pronouns will cause harm to a greater # of women, and that risk should not be taken lightly.
USA: Almost 50% of Trans Inmates in Federal Custody for Sex Offences: http://archive.today/D2tsf
UK: ~60% 👉https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/are-sex-offenders-exploiting-trans-rights-policies-behind-bars-
Fair enough I wasn't arguing based on the reality of the movement but based on the way we should talk about it, maybe in effect it is a male-supremacist movement.
I think part of the problem is that people are getting tripped up on the fact that the outcomes of the trans rights movement benefit male supremacism, but a lot of the social enforcers are women. One doesn’t cancel out the other though.
One of the most irritating aspects of popular transactivism over the past few years has been its adherents’ refusal to lay out their terms, talk about outcomes, and have a proper debate over whether the ends do actually justify the means. Any attempt to do that has been shut down with “no debate,” and anyone who attempts to follow logical outcomes is a “transphobe” - even if the questioner is trans. The fact that a pile of women are helping to enforce this and obediently refusing to think through outcomes does seem to indicate that women can fall prey to social pressure quite easily, but it doesn’t mean the outcomes themselves don’t benefit the type of men those women would normally oppose. It’s a maddening paradox.
I think that what may answer the question is class, which I personally believe is a better way to describe the more extreme aspects of trans-activism. In which largely upper class and upper-middle class socially liberal women (and men) make policies that will largely affect working class women who are more likely to go to prison and more likely to use community public swimming pools. They then say they are doing this to help the marginalized.
By extreme elements I mean self-ID in changing rooms and prisons.
Agree 100% about the prisons though to be fair about the pools, it is already happening at private pools as well.
I think the issue is who is marginalized, and whose marginalization, well, matters more. So. A poor woman who goes to the public pool and changes in the women's room and is appalled to see someone with a penis there. Or is it the penis haver? Or is it both? And if it is both, who matters more?
Like. A poor black woman who was abused by her ex husband and truly feels unsafe around men. Or a black trans woman who was constantly beaten up by men? Their needs contradict each other.
But here is where it gets mote complicated. I completely understand trans women being afraid of men's spaces because it is dangerous for them. What I find galling now is that a lot of trans activists talk about women's spaces as being affirming for trans women. So. Sure a women's changing room for a trans woman who is in danger if she goes to the men's room. But why the women's room for someone who cane out as trans a week ago? Fucking crazy.
Finally. In terms of class. I do think most trans women are poor and marginalized. Bit does their needs outweigh those of poor and marginalized biological women?
Abd I can't with trans women are women
Agree completely. To me, bottom line, there just isn't a way to make everyone happy here. If society wants to carve out space for trans people, it should not come out of women's spaces - they need a third space. In bathrooms, jails, pools, changing rooms, sports, everywhere. If Self ID is good enough, all the nonsense about "oh it's just a tiny % of people" goes out the window. My safety/comfort as a woman should trump a man's "affirmation" to feel like a woman. Every fucking time.
And honestly, if this was being dealt with in a normal, practical way, I doubt there would even be as much drama as there is. Sure there will always be a small number of people who are just bigots and hate trans people, but most of us women who question this stuff don't hate anyone. We just don't understand why we are constantly throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to these very important issues of safety, medical treatment of children, and our own sex-based rights and hard-fought privileges (like... the "women of the year" awards being given to men in dresses, etc.). That stuff is infuriating and illogical. Why are we expected to shut up and not be pissed off??
I have such mixed feelings as in grad school my internship was with an LGBTQ center and a few people were trans. This was in 2016 so the big thing wad bathrooms. And I sort of get the argument that special trans bathrooms is further stigmatizing. At the same time. I am not showering with a woman who last week was a 35 year old straight dude.
I dont know if you ever saw this video Meghan Murphy and this trans activist at a Calgary library. It was really interesting because at one point a woman stood up and asked a question abput her daughter. And the TRA said she wpuld answer "as a woman." I HATE this shit. Trans women should not be discriminated against. Should be treated with kindness and respect. But if you did not go through female puberty or didn't go because of health issues, then you are npt a woman. Even 10 years agp this was npt a question.
However the TRA did say something I found interesting. Which is that we have a right tp BE safe, not FEEL safe. Which I thought was a good point. OTH, by that logic. A 6 foot 2 250 pound dude who transitions - why the women's room at all then?
I would say means rooms women's rooms and gender neutral rooms.
What is the difference between BEING safe vs FEELING safe? And who were they referring to - women have that right, or trans women? How does one know in real time if they ARE safe or just FEEL safe? It's a clever sentence, but it doesn't actually mean anything... right?
There is a difference between being safe and feeling safe. Like. Many people feel safer in a car than on a plane, but in fact they are safer on the plane.
And I wasnt saying anything. The TFA was saying women have the right to be safe, not necessarily feel safe. Her implication being that when a large 6 foot tall recently transitioned trans woman uses the women's room, and some do not feel safe - that does not mean they actually are unsafe.
The analogy the TRA used was some women crossing the street when a black man walks by because they do not feel safe.
The problem I have is that too often women have been hurt or killed because they didn't feel comfortable bit never said said anything because they didn't want to be rude
Also. While the vast majority of trans women ARE safe, it is only men and trans women who rape women
And finally. I would have no issue with trans women in changing room if it were under the old system when it took a long time to actually transition, so that they had been socialized into womanhood. But with self ID? No.
But I did think it was a valid point that just because some women felt unsafe around trans women, it does npt mean they are.
Replacing sex with gender (where gender is defined by self-id) in all aspects of society is not the extreme position within the trans-activist community, it's the mainstream. The debate about this is happening all over the world, and not just in changing rooms and prisons, but wherever sex-segregation was the norm up until a few years ago: in college dorms, in all levels of sports, in children's camps, in lesbian bars/festivals/clubs, in hospital wards, in AA meetings and group therapy sessions.
Prioritizing gender over sex has profound implications, especially for women. While it may have more of an immediate, tangible impact in certain situations in which upper class women may not find themselves, eg a domestic violence shelter, the impact is rapidly spreading to many other areas of life.
I recommend you read Helen Joyce's book, Trans, or listen to one of her interviews (she's just been on Jordan Peterson's podcast.)
Sounds a lot like the abortion issue, don't it?