We Christians do not support Israel because of the end times. I keep hearing lefties saying that and it's really inaccurate.
Yes, some Christians believe that Jesus won't come back until the Jewish temple is rebuilt on the Temple Mount (I THINK that's what it is, I've been in evangelical Christianity my whole life and I'm only sort of sur…
We Christians do not support Israel because of the end times. I keep hearing lefties saying that and it's really inaccurate.
Yes, some Christians believe that Jesus won't come back until the Jewish temple is rebuilt on the Temple Mount (I THINK that's what it is, I've been in evangelical Christianity my whole life and I'm only sort of sure that's what it is). But I don't know of any Christians who are actively trying to make Jesus come back sooner. In fact, the Bible says that no one knows the time; we're also busy living our lives, not trying to bring about the end times.
The reason Christians support Israel is that the Jews are God's chosen people, and the Bible also says something along the lines of "woe to those who turn their backs on God's chosen people." Then of course there's just normal conservative politics: Israel is an ally, the only democracy in the Middle East, they've been attacked and persecuted by their Islamic nation neighbors since 1948, and that whole Holocaust thing, etc.
I think what's happening is that lefties hear other lefties, like Briahna Joy Gray, say that Christians are Zionists because of the end times stuff, and they repeat it.
I’ve literally only heard this theory from secular Jews and lefties. I’ve been swimming in evangelical waters in several states and several different denominations for 50 years and I have never heard anyone say anything even vaguely like this as a reason to support Israel. It’s bizarre. I have no idea where this silly rumor started but it’s either so regionally or denominationally niche that I’ve never heard it or it’s utter bulls**t. Why do they want to believe it so badly? It’s weird!
Yes...it is a basic belief of all evangelicals. Half of them believe it according to wapo article below. Gw Bush believed it. They also believe in predestination which means no matter how they behave while on earth they are guaranteed to get into heaven or go to hell. Their worldy actions have no impact.
"The LifeWay poll also asked evangelical respondents what factors contribute to their support for the state of Israel. More than 6 in 10 cited God’s pledge to Abraham. The third-most-cited reason was that the existence of Israel was necessary for fulfilling prophecy. More than half of evangelicals said that was a reason they supported Israel’s existence."
Do you actually know any American evangelicals? Because I do, and this is ridiculous. Now I’m curious why you’re so determined to push this narrative in spite of evangelicals here and elsewhere insisting that their support of Israel has nothing to do with this.
What myth? Are you disputing the wapo article with the poll showing half of evangelicals self report that they support Israel bc they believe it's necessary for the rapture to occur?
Yes. I am disputing a wildly anti-evangelical news source and it’s badly interpreted crap poll entirely. It’s hogwash. Horse crap. Lies. Balderdash. Rubbish. Baloney. Malarkey. Propaganda for useful (or useless) idiots and if you’ll pardon my French it’s bullshit. That’s all.
I know Cam is trolling with this "Israel murdering children" nonsense; but the assertions about American evangelical support for Israel are not completely baseless. John Hagee is very popular evangelical minister who speaks often about the need to protect God's chosen people in the state of Israel. He is well-connected in social conservative GOP circles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_for_Israel
Ok so why do evangelicals almost unanimously support Israel...a religious ethnostate of a religion which OPPOSES their religion in the same way that Islam does. Why not such huge support for Saudi Arabia and the city of Mecca?
Ps you should quit now bc I'm going to trick you into agreeing with me and you're going to look dumb
Evangelicals do not believe in predestination. They believe in free will. You are confusing the concept of predestination with the concept of salvation by faith alone. Evangelicals are supposed to believe in salvation by faith alone, but interestingly, a significant number of churches seem to hedge on in it practice - otherwise the concept of "backsliding" wouldn't represent a threat to salvation.
Some Calvinists go off on a whole "there are only 144k names in the book of the lamb so you are born elect or you aren't" but that is quirky and not at all mainstream.
No, it's not tomato vs. tomahto. You made a very large error in what you stated about the beliefs of evangelicals concerning the doctrine of predestination, and you were corrected. Since you don't seem to know, the proper and adult way to respond would have been along the lines of "I stand corrected."
If you Google this question you'll see that many. Christians including evangelicals believe in predestination.
And indoctrinating people to believe in salvation based on belief alone and not your character and conduct creates a toxic person. This explains a LOT with the Israel/ Gaza situation.
If you're already guarunteed to go to heaven when you die...who cares how many palestinian kids you kill during your lifetime right?
I stand corrected. I see a New York Times article discussing the phenomenon of a small number of evangelical pastors teaching Calvinism/predestination as part of what is described as a "Calvinist revival", and a minority of Southern Baptist pastors surveyed considering their churches Calvinist in 2012. It is an interesting article describing a new phenomenon, particularly in the modern Baptist Church. It is very likely a reaction at the seminaries to the rise of prosperity gospel and a focus on the power of positive thinking instead of theology.
My point stands, however, about predestination and salvation by faith alone being two entirely separate doctrines.
The rest of your comment is not something I will be responding to, as there is nothing fruitful that will come from further engagement.. I am not capable of offering a comment on the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, nor the Israel/Gaza conflict, with the knowledge, thoughtfulness, and nuance both of those subjects require.
You can speak on behalf of yourself as a Christian, but unlike sex, Christianity exists on a spectrum with current end-points being the Westboro Baptist Church and the Unitarian Universalist Association — and then many, many shades between them. Your beliefs, and the beliefs you have engaged with, are no more typical of Christianity than any specific hue can represent color itself.
Try googling “the end times and Israel” and you will find dozens of websites making claims like this: “In Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog. Who is Magog? Listen, no one can say with absolute certainty... The Bible says that Magog will come against her will; the Bible describes hooks in her jaws, pulling her forward almost as though Magog is coming in reluctantly along with her ally, Persia (or Iran)...” [https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/]
Liberty University, coming from the same end of the spectrum, will tell you, “One of the major Divine purposes for the tribulation in relation to Israel is the conversion of the Jewish remnant to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. This will take place throughout the tribulation, but by the end of the seven-year period the entire number of the elect remnant will become converted to Jesus. That number is likely a third of the Jewish people as noted in Zechariah 13:9. ‘And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, «They are My people» and they will say, «The LORD is my God.»’ As part of the process of bringing the Jewish remnant to faith Zechariah 13:8 speaks of a purging out of the non-elect Jewish element from the nation...”
You can readily find people online reacting to the Hamas attack, and its Iranian supporters, as confirmation of their belief that the rapture will soon be upon us. It’s really not a “silly rumor”; it’s just not the kind of Christianity with which you are familiar.
The lefties say a lot of nutty stuff but they are not wrong about evangelical support for Israel being based on an obsession with the book of revelations and the of the world narrative with the establishment of Israel. This is not new at all. All the major mouths of the evangelical movement in the past, like Robertson, Falwell or Graham ranted this stuff. The Israelis themselves have supported the Evangelical views because it has resulted in massive military support for Israel over the decades. Netanyahu has given speeches to Evangelicals in order to drum up support for Israel. Even though he is going to hell by their insistence.
What is troubling is that the Trumpy Republican party is in thrall to the Evangelicals and fall over themselves to get their votes.
Thank you for getting this discussion back on track. Most people have no idea how crazy some of the religious figures around Trump are and the insane belief systems they're spreading.
For more information, listen to the following two episodes of the Politicology podcast:
Holy War
Amid the sea of Trump flags outside the Capitol on January 6th, there were signs that read "Jesus is my Savior, Trump is my President." A group of protestors carried a giant cross as they marched around the Capitol.
Why were these Christian images on prominent display? What role did Charismatic Christianity play in the buildup to the riot at the capitol? How is it continuing to shape our politics?
In this two-part episode, Matthew Taylor (writer and creator of the audio-documentary series “Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation" ) joins Ron Steslow to discuss how the non-denominational Charismatic Christianity built to the attack on January 6th and what it will mean going forward.
It is amazing to realize that Christianity started as a failed Jewish messiah cult that a Roman mass murderer named Paul transformed into a universal messiah cult. The cult became the Roman state religion and then was taken up by the barbarians who destroyed the Roman Empire. All these centuries later it is still with us infecting our minds and politics. Truly amazing.
Who really knows? Paul created Christianity and created the amazing Jesus to be the universal messiah. Considering the radical influence of this religion over the centuries, it makes more sense to say that Paul was the amazing one.
Insane luck and circumstance does not require an amazing person. It just requires someone to be in the right place at the right time, and history follows from that. Jesus was most likely very ordinary.
I agree they are Fairy Tales but the fact remains that humans seem to have a need for these tales. We all thought that religion would fade away after the Enlightenment and the rise of reason and science. But it hasn’t. If anything it has mutated and gone down different paths. Look at the rise of the gender fairy tales discussed here. Humans have a huge need for the illusions given by irrational doctrines. You and I can’t stop this, we can only hope they don’t kill us for not believing their nonsense.
My wife's parents are staunch believers that this is the end times and the rapture will occur before they die. They are early 60s. They specifically state that Joe Biden is possessed by demons and Israel must be defended so the Jews of the world can return and begin Armageddon.
We Christians do not support Israel because of the end times. I keep hearing lefties saying that and it's really inaccurate.
Yes, some Christians believe that Jesus won't come back until the Jewish temple is rebuilt on the Temple Mount (I THINK that's what it is, I've been in evangelical Christianity my whole life and I'm only sort of sure that's what it is). But I don't know of any Christians who are actively trying to make Jesus come back sooner. In fact, the Bible says that no one knows the time; we're also busy living our lives, not trying to bring about the end times.
The reason Christians support Israel is that the Jews are God's chosen people, and the Bible also says something along the lines of "woe to those who turn their backs on God's chosen people." Then of course there's just normal conservative politics: Israel is an ally, the only democracy in the Middle East, they've been attacked and persecuted by their Islamic nation neighbors since 1948, and that whole Holocaust thing, etc.
I think what's happening is that lefties hear other lefties, like Briahna Joy Gray, say that Christians are Zionists because of the end times stuff, and they repeat it.
I’ve literally only heard this theory from secular Jews and lefties. I’ve been swimming in evangelical waters in several states and several different denominations for 50 years and I have never heard anyone say anything even vaguely like this as a reason to support Israel. It’s bizarre. I have no idea where this silly rumor started but it’s either so regionally or denominationally niche that I’ve never heard it or it’s utter bulls**t. Why do they want to believe it so badly? It’s weird!
Catholics don't believe this. Only evangelicals and Baptists and other American Christians denominations. It's widespread in the USA.
No it’s not.
Yes...it is a basic belief of all evangelicals. Half of them believe it according to wapo article below. Gw Bush believed it. They also believe in predestination which means no matter how they behave while on earth they are guaranteed to get into heaven or go to hell. Their worldy actions have no impact.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/
"The LifeWay poll also asked evangelical respondents what factors contribute to their support for the state of Israel. More than 6 in 10 cited God’s pledge to Abraham. The third-most-cited reason was that the existence of Israel was necessary for fulfilling prophecy. More than half of evangelicals said that was a reason they supported Israel’s existence."
Do you actually know any American evangelicals? Because I do, and this is ridiculous. Now I’m curious why you’re so determined to push this narrative in spite of evangelicals here and elsewhere insisting that their support of Israel has nothing to do with this.
Yes. Read my other posts. Evangelicals are happy to tell you about this stuff when Israel isn't murdering thousands of children on TV
Oh, never mind. I see why you’re pushing this myth now. Got it.
What myth? Are you disputing the wapo article with the poll showing half of evangelicals self report that they support Israel bc they believe it's necessary for the rapture to occur?
Yes. I am disputing a wildly anti-evangelical news source and it’s badly interpreted crap poll entirely. It’s hogwash. Horse crap. Lies. Balderdash. Rubbish. Baloney. Malarkey. Propaganda for useful (or useless) idiots and if you’ll pardon my French it’s bullshit. That’s all.
I know Cam is trolling with this "Israel murdering children" nonsense; but the assertions about American evangelical support for Israel are not completely baseless. John Hagee is very popular evangelical minister who speaks often about the need to protect God's chosen people in the state of Israel. He is well-connected in social conservative GOP circles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_United_for_Israel
Ok so why do evangelicals almost unanimously support Israel...a religious ethnostate of a religion which OPPOSES their religion in the same way that Islam does. Why not such huge support for Saudi Arabia and the city of Mecca?
Ps you should quit now bc I'm going to trick you into agreeing with me and you're going to look dumb
Evangelicals do not believe in predestination. They believe in free will. You are confusing the concept of predestination with the concept of salvation by faith alone. Evangelicals are supposed to believe in salvation by faith alone, but interestingly, a significant number of churches seem to hedge on in it practice - otherwise the concept of "backsliding" wouldn't represent a threat to salvation.
Some Calvinists go off on a whole "there are only 144k names in the book of the lamb so you are born elect or you aren't" but that is quirky and not at all mainstream.
Tomato vs to- mah-toe
No, it's not tomato vs. tomahto. You made a very large error in what you stated about the beliefs of evangelicals concerning the doctrine of predestination, and you were corrected. Since you don't seem to know, the proper and adult way to respond would have been along the lines of "I stand corrected."
If you Google this question you'll see that many. Christians including evangelicals believe in predestination.
And indoctrinating people to believe in salvation based on belief alone and not your character and conduct creates a toxic person. This explains a LOT with the Israel/ Gaza situation.
If you're already guarunteed to go to heaven when you die...who cares how many palestinian kids you kill during your lifetime right?
I stand corrected. I see a New York Times article discussing the phenomenon of a small number of evangelical pastors teaching Calvinism/predestination as part of what is described as a "Calvinist revival", and a minority of Southern Baptist pastors surveyed considering their churches Calvinist in 2012. It is an interesting article describing a new phenomenon, particularly in the modern Baptist Church. It is very likely a reaction at the seminaries to the rise of prosperity gospel and a focus on the power of positive thinking instead of theology.
My point stands, however, about predestination and salvation by faith alone being two entirely separate doctrines.
The rest of your comment is not something I will be responding to, as there is nothing fruitful that will come from further engagement.. I am not capable of offering a comment on the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, nor the Israel/Gaza conflict, with the knowledge, thoughtfulness, and nuance both of those subjects require.
You can speak on behalf of yourself as a Christian, but unlike sex, Christianity exists on a spectrum with current end-points being the Westboro Baptist Church and the Unitarian Universalist Association — and then many, many shades between them. Your beliefs, and the beliefs you have engaged with, are no more typical of Christianity than any specific hue can represent color itself.
Try googling “the end times and Israel” and you will find dozens of websites making claims like this: “In Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog. Who is Magog? Listen, no one can say with absolute certainty... The Bible says that Magog will come against her will; the Bible describes hooks in her jaws, pulling her forward almost as though Magog is coming in reluctantly along with her ally, Persia (or Iran)...” [https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/]
Liberty University, coming from the same end of the spectrum, will tell you, “One of the major Divine purposes for the tribulation in relation to Israel is the conversion of the Jewish remnant to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. This will take place throughout the tribulation, but by the end of the seven-year period the entire number of the elect remnant will become converted to Jesus. That number is likely a third of the Jewish people as noted in Zechariah 13:9. ‘And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, «They are My people» and they will say, «The LORD is my God.»’ As part of the process of bringing the Jewish remnant to faith Zechariah 13:8 speaks of a purging out of the non-elect Jewish element from the nation...”
You can readily find people online reacting to the Hamas attack, and its Iranian supporters, as confirmation of their belief that the rapture will soon be upon us. It’s really not a “silly rumor”; it’s just not the kind of Christianity with which you are familiar.
I grew up during the cold war and gog and magog were interpreted to be the Soviet union in my church.
Hal Lindsey's the late great planet earth was a very influential book in many evangelical circles in the 70s.
The lefties say a lot of nutty stuff but they are not wrong about evangelical support for Israel being based on an obsession with the book of revelations and the of the world narrative with the establishment of Israel. This is not new at all. All the major mouths of the evangelical movement in the past, like Robertson, Falwell or Graham ranted this stuff. The Israelis themselves have supported the Evangelical views because it has resulted in massive military support for Israel over the decades. Netanyahu has given speeches to Evangelicals in order to drum up support for Israel. Even though he is going to hell by their insistence.
What is troubling is that the Trumpy Republican party is in thrall to the Evangelicals and fall over themselves to get their votes.
Thank you for getting this discussion back on track. Most people have no idea how crazy some of the religious figures around Trump are and the insane belief systems they're spreading.
For more information, listen to the following two episodes of the Politicology podcast:
Holy War
Amid the sea of Trump flags outside the Capitol on January 6th, there were signs that read "Jesus is my Savior, Trump is my President." A group of protestors carried a giant cross as they marched around the Capitol.
Why were these Christian images on prominent display? What role did Charismatic Christianity play in the buildup to the riot at the capitol? How is it continuing to shape our politics?
In this two-part episode, Matthew Taylor (writer and creator of the audio-documentary series “Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation" ) joins Ron Steslow to discuss how the non-denominational Charismatic Christianity built to the attack on January 6th and what it will mean going forward.
Part 1: https://politicology.com/episodes/holy-war-pt1-110824/
Part 2: https://politicology.com/episodes/holy-war-pt-2-112223/
It is amazing to realize that Christianity started as a failed Jewish messiah cult that a Roman mass murderer named Paul transformed into a universal messiah cult. The cult became the Roman state religion and then was taken up by the barbarians who destroyed the Roman Empire. All these centuries later it is still with us infecting our minds and politics. Truly amazing.
How amazing must Jesus have been?
Who really knows? Paul created Christianity and created the amazing Jesus to be the universal messiah. Considering the radical influence of this religion over the centuries, it makes more sense to say that Paul was the amazing one.
Insane luck and circumstance does not require an amazing person. It just requires someone to be in the right place at the right time, and history follows from that. Jesus was most likely very ordinary.
He was not the messiah. He was just a naughty boy.
Fairy tales, pure and simple. I'd sooner memorize and old Yellow Pages than fill my head with the tenets of any religion.
I agree they are Fairy Tales but the fact remains that humans seem to have a need for these tales. We all thought that religion would fade away after the Enlightenment and the rise of reason and science. But it hasn’t. If anything it has mutated and gone down different paths. Look at the rise of the gender fairy tales discussed here. Humans have a huge need for the illusions given by irrational doctrines. You and I can’t stop this, we can only hope they don’t kill us for not believing their nonsense.
Well said!
He was not the messiah. He failed. Paul created the religion that still infects our minds to today.
My wife's parents are staunch believers that this is the end times and the rapture will occur before they die. They are early 60s. They specifically state that Joe Biden is possessed by demons and Israel must be defended so the Jews of the world can return and begin Armageddon.
It may no longer be true, but in the evangelical circles I grew up in it was very much a thing in the 1980s.