One thing I’ve been most disappointed by in life is joining this group and discovering most BARPod listeners are at best right-wing loons. At worst, political nihilists who want to watch the world burn for LOLz.
It’s nice to see some people understand it’s possible to oppose far-left nonsense and still be liberal.
Seriously? You think that describes most commenters here? I might say that about the Free Press comment section (it’s a horror show), but I think most commenters here are variations on Jesse and Katie: People who used to be very liberal and/or big-P Progressive and/or leftist who became disillusioned by the extremists and the ridiculous aspects of the culture wars, but who actively resist going over to the right wing because it doesn’t align with our values at all and we resent how craziness on the left makes the right sometimes look like the more reasonable side. Youth gender medicine is probably the prime example. As a result, we’re in a tough place, but we don’t want to burn everything to the ground, we just want our old friends and allies to come to their senses and not squander the very real social gains Democrats in the US (and equivalents in other countries) have made.
Well put, thank you. (And yes, your description of the Free Press commentariat is spot on - and I’m sure Bari and Nellie are repulsed by their fandom, btw. And no, I don’t blame them (Bari and Nellie) at all. I admire them. I just don’t agree with them at several points. FYI.)
Agree. I see so much conspiracy thinking among friends and family who vote D and R. Honestly listening to cult survivor podcasts is the one thing that got me through the last few years. It gives me hope that even the Truest of Believers might be pushed too far by the rules of the cult and snap out from the brain fog.
That hasn’t been my experience. The people I’m talking about think Jesse and Katie are too far-left. They moan about being “politically homeless” while consistently excusing far-right nonsense.
For example, one absolute knob said he didn’t care if abortion was banned because… it didn’t affect him or his wife. He’s not “disillusioned” or politically homeless, he’s a right-winger who — for whatever reason — refuses to identify as such.
Bad read, Noah. I appreciate your point of view, it’s giving me pause to review the situation here, but at end of day, it’s just dead wrong. What you’re describing is EXACTLY the Free Press commentators. Go check that out and report back. I’ll wait…
How is this an example of a ‘right winger’? Right wingers normally base their anti abortion stance on what they conceive of as moral or religious reasons (eg. “avoid terminating innocent life” or “don’t cancel souls”) I don’t think I’ve ever heard a right winger justify an anti abortion stance on the fact that it doesn’t affect them.
I see less of that in the non-episode threads, but also I feel heartened a bit that people to the right, and even way further to the right than I am, will still engage with me and others who don't agree with them when we're not discussing politics, even if we really locked horns in another thread.
Right. This is a reason I'm leaning toward "continue to avoid politics." I like the mix of people and the engagement on other topics that transcends that shit; I think it's a big part of the draw of the show (to my mind anyway). I wouldn't want this space devolving into outrage over this or that take (any more than just normally happens online when you discuss anything).
Politics is the way we organize and fund society. There’s no such thing as “Avoiding politics”. Even the refusal to support any political candidate is a political decision — as if impacts how society is organized and funded
I don’t think it is a majority BUT you are hitting on something here. There are a group of people (multiple) who will gang up on left wing perspectives in a way I don’t see for right wing perspectives.
For example:
People are not gonna get piled on for saying things that imply that all Palestinians are as bad as Hamas, but they will get piled on for saying things that imply that all Israelis are genocidal.
That's a silly example. 70% or so of Palestinians support Hamas, and put them in power. I highly doubt that 70% of Israelis are like "ya kill all the Palestinians, dat's kool." So it's a weird lefty example.
It’s not that silly. If you think that Palestinians “supporting Hamas” means they think “ya kill all the Jews dats kool” you’re being just as weird. Most support Hamas because they (incorrectly in my view, but understandably given the circumstances) believe that the Israeli army wants to kill them all or at least force them to abandon their homes/nation
I don't think it's the majority, but I have learned from reading these comments that a lot of people who describe themselves as "heterodox" are actually conservative. At least, it's a red flag.
I would fall into the political nihilism crowd. I just went on a rant here saying I don’t vote and my favorite American politician is Lori Lightfoot because she wore Rona Destroyer costume to a press conference in 2020. If the world actually started burning I would try to make money off it, they call it war profiteering and if that didn’t work just grab popcorn and enjoy the LOLz
It may look like nihilism to many but it's actually just the realization that nothing can be changed under the current circumstances because a preponderance of the voting public is fine with what we have now. Specifically anyone older than GenX is to blame: they gave us Biden and Trump and they are Biden and Trump.
Boomers got us into this mess and they simply aren't willing to step aside and allow anyone else to fix our problems. They seem to want to calcify our politics so that they can live out their remaining years with social security, medicare, and their home/profits from house sale.
They have, for example, left the planet worse off, refused to do anything about it, and have taken over the upper echelons/position of powers of institutions and refuse to retire.
Quite frankly insulting to have to watch two old men barely be able to shuffle up to the podium on debate night, both bent over, incoherent, and estranged from reality. Especially since both participants have been more or less active in shutting down any possibility for advancement of younger politicians.
I’m kind of similar but I acknowledge my detachment and cynicism comes from a deep seated fear. It sucks to not know what to believe and to second guess everything you hear…even from trusted friends and family.
My nihilism comes from paying attention too much for a long time when I was younger. Then all of sudden I just woke up and said if they aren’t going to care then why should I care.
Exactly. That is precisely the reason I really like podcast. There are too many people who say they are heterodox but are just conservatives and full of shit about being free thinkers.
Please don’t. Internet bullshit, deep dives into trans healthcare issues, and “how journalism should be done” are their niches. I think they’d be dull on standard politics (or at least would have little to add). Katie doesn’t seem that into mainstream politics, and when Jesse does he just seems to have pretty standard liberal takes for someone his age.
You couldn’t possibly be talking about the most recent thing from Sarah Haider and Meghan Daum (“A Special Place in Hell”, it’s called), could you? I still have a draft comment that I wrote (and for some reason haven’t actually posted) while listening to their—or actually, mostly Sarah’s—sorta weird spiel that basically amounts to “meh, Trump/the ‘right’ isn’t as bad as I thought and maybe they’re worth listening to”. And then Meghan will sometimes push back (albeit halfheartedly at times), but the dark, nihilistic tone of Sarah’s basic message is really what you come away with.
It’s clear that a lot of people—beyond just Sarah and Meghan—just genuinely hate crazy left-coded internet people (and they *are* insufferable!) so much that they’re willing to throw in with, or at least downplay the threat of, the modern right. It’s either naïve or contemptible, and I often have a hard time deciding which. Negative polarization is real, ladies and gents.
I'm a right-leaning libertarian. Definitely more right than left. It's weird to hear you call me and my friends a "threat." I think you would probably like us just fine.
I’m about 99% sure I’m not talking about you. I’m a big fan of the Fifth Column—though not their policy positions on a lot of things, but hey, who cares, I don’t think their positions are insane (usually, lol)—and have a libertarian streak myself. In fact I’d describe myself as a civil libertarian, certainly.
The people I’m talking about as a “threat” are NOT libertarians: “groyper” types, Bannon types, various other misfits and malcontents who have glommed onto Donald Trump’s personality cult. These people aren’t big on liberties, civil or otherwise; in fact, a lot of them seem to really get off on telling other people what to do, especially if they can be gratuitously cruel about it. I don’t even feel this way about normal (circa 2010 or whenever) Republicans; I definitely didn’t want Romney to win in 2012, but I wouldn’t have been extremely concerned about it the way I am in 2024.
Frankly I’m not even that left-wing. I’d say I’m center-left: I live in NYC by choice; I believe in progressive taxation and public services—especially transit- and healthcare-related services—and the like in a way that libertarians tend not to; but I’m very opposed to the “woke” stuff, for lack of a less stupid word, and the DSA/lefty types. (AOC is my congresswoman, for instance. and I *really* want to see someone more normal and sensible successfully primary her out—or, even better, my useless, DSA-adjacent city councilwoman, Tiffany Cabán, who makes AOC look terrific by comparison.) I know and love lots of conservatives and right-wing people (I’m from Alabama, so this includes a lot of my own family, and especially my sweet late mother, God rest her Rush Limbaugh–loving soul).
So yeah, not sure if that makes my remark any less offensive to you or not, but I hope so!
Absolutely. There is also a flip side of people on the left who criticise others on the left for not just focusing their criticism at the right, because they’re more ‘dangerous’.
I think it’s perfect reasonable to use your time & energy to criticise one group and not the other, but if the result of that is playing things in relation to the group you don’t talk about much, you have to start questioning people’s real values.
While I loath trump, I'm not convinced his election would have much of a substantive impact on anything.
If he got tariffs through, that could certainly hurt the economy. But it would take congress to do that and if that's what republicans want, they'd do it with whomever they get in office.
Even the big "what about" I'm not so sure Trump is the key factor. Roe? Any republican president would have nominated a conservative court. They've been at it for decades. And most of the recent credit there goes to McConnell.
Just saying I'm not quite on board with the full Doom & Gloom / End of Democracy trump train.
You’re tired of your heterodox podcast hosts saying that maybe that it’s fine if someone who half the country consciously and with 8 years of full information decide to vote for as president becomes president?
Yep. Of course, I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote for him. And I'm all in favor of intellectual humility. But I've seen tons and tons of the pro Trump cases and have considered them and, really going on a limb here, I still think he's a really bad choice for President. I'm also allowed to think a lot about a topic and come to the conclusion that a significant amount of people are wrong.
Right I get that. And that’s fine and a respectable heterodox take. And I understand that what you’re saying is that you’re relieved to finally find a heterodox podcast that has come to the same conclusion as you.
But I just think what you’re missing in all this is the following. Most of the other formerly straight liberal/now heterodox podcasts you’re listening to aren’t “pro Trump” or “fine” that he gets elected.
All that’s happened is that they’ve realized they’ve been lied to by the MSM and DNC for years about so much (mostly about Biden’s mental state and criminal activity) and that maybe that they’ve been lying about other things too… like Trump being Hitler. And that maybe he’s just a regular politician and that if he becomes president again that’s just a lost political campaign and a majority of Americans want that and it’s not “the end of democracy”.
Still why do you care so much. There are way more interesting things to do in real life or online. The internet is the greatest thing humans have ever developed and we use it for porn, animal videos, and talking politics. Grow a garden, build a model sailboat, or make a delicious meal. All of those choices will give you a sense of accomplishment
You seem to be suggesting that Trump is a “regular politician” who does not pose a real threat to democracy, but I’m unclear about your basis for that claim. Sure, escalating criticisms of Trump to comparisons with Hitler has little meaning in itself, but in what sense do you see Trump as “normal,” and what type of specific characteristics or acts would be needed to classify a politician as “abnormal” and/or as a threat to democracy?
Well I’m not the one who’s ever made the claim that he IS a unique threat to democracy or ABNORMAL. I feel like the obligation is on the people who make that claim to prove it.
I’m no Trumpist but I have never been convinced that Trump is anything out of the ordinary as a politician. He is just an exaggerated parody of one in his presentation.
He had the ultimate chance to claim power, hold onto it and be the authoritarian/autocrat/nazi/whatever during COVID. He was pretty mid. His whole presidency was mid. We lived through him being president. We will survive if he is president again.
And honestly I’m kinda tired of people pretending he actually sucks. My bank account suggests he was fantastic. I’m making at least 30% more money now than I was around 2020 and I’m more broke than ever, even after trying to budget better and cutting back on BS spending.
So on economics alone he’s worth some bad tweets as far as my anecdotal evidence goes. So what did he do that you hated so much? Other than being a no good racist homophobic orange monkey bastard with small hands, bad hair and a pussy grabbing problem?
You're making more money now, in 2024 now that Biden has been president for 3+ years, than you were in 2020 when Trump was president and that is... because of Trump? eh?
I’m making more money now because I work hard and got a better job and promotions. I’m more broke because our economy looks like my TP after a Taco Bell night because Biden can’t stop spending and throwing money at voters for their votes.
Economy was good, right?
Now is not so good, right?
What do I take from that? I know shit happens but steering the ship through the storm is kind of a presidents job and Biden caused more storms and can’t fucking walk let alone steer so…
He doesn't steer the ship. He's the guy at the helm yelling about how it should be steered. The US and global economy is the ocean. Yours is not a good take.
The only politician in the 21st century I liked was Tom Ford the mayor of Toronto. As an American there are only two things I jealous that Canadians have Tom Ford RIP and Poutine. I mean the guy was caught smoking crack with his constituents. That is being a man of the people.
To be honest I don’t vote so I really don’t care all that much. I totally forgot that Harris was our VP before listening to this episode. I don’t know anything about the man other than the videos I saw of him on YouTube. He made me laugh so that is why I liked him. We have had plenty of politicians get caught on camera using drugs, but they weren’t cartoonish like him. My favorite American politician is former mayor Lori Lightfoot not because I agreed with her politics or policies she looked and acted like a cartoon villain. She was probably a horrible politician and person but she owned it so it made me laugh. She dressed up in a costume in October of 2020 as Rona the destroyer for Halloween. She was also caught red handed having an affair and using public money to buy hotel rooms and denied it the whole time. She was a cartoon and cartoons make me laugh.
Rob Ford was a key figure in the War On Cars, possibly coining the term. I appreciate that because I've enjoyed many episodes of the War on Cars podcast and without Rob, they'd never have that name. He was the General Patton on the side of the cars.
As a guy who is ABSOLUTELY going to vote Trump cuz fuck the left, I do agree with this. Their principles seem intact and I appreciate that. Jessie might have slight TDS but Katie’s been my fav anyway so that’s not hard to overlook.
I remember realizing Dave Rubin was turning super right grifter and it’s seriously off putting. Every time someone gets canceled and they immediately do a 180 instead of a 90 I throw up a little bit because I can’t respect that.
I've been thinking about this, and there are a few answers. I'd have to check with my wife, I think we're some of the rare people who might have a worse off tax situation. I know one of my friends is like that post-divorce. I know my daughter graduating college is now concerned about abortion rights and writing off states for the job search.
But there's also the issue that government and policy is a large boat and it's often hard to point to individual president's contributions as helping or hurting. It doesn't mean they don't steer the boat and cause harm down the road. Did Biden cause the inflation? Probably, but it's also global so maybe not. Did Trump's tariffs hurt me in terms of the prices I pay? It's conceivable but I don't know.
But the bigger issue is that that very question is a bit telling. I don't just vote for my interests. I care about the overall populace and I try to vote for policies and people who will help the most people. There _are_ people who have been at the disadvantage of Trump's policies. And I happen to think more people than the alternative.
Yeah, that's totally a good faith reading of my comment. She's just waiting to get an abortion. Can't wait for it. But has to pick the right state to get a job first. Totally what I meant.
* Work on the plan to install partisan loyalists across all the civil service
* Eliminate or reduce environmental protections and contribute to worsening of global warming
* Get legal immigration caught up in the illegal immigration fears and reduce our ability to attract the kind of people our country needs
* Stop helping Ukraine and make the world safer for despots like Putin and less democratic overall
* Worsen tariffs and free trade and have higher prices for goods
* Degrade our overall rhetoric and ability to live and work together with people from the other side and even reduce the independent thinking capable in the GOP
* Solidify the Supreme Court majority that doesn't reflect the will of the people
* Contribute to deepening distrust of vital institutions, even beyond the healthy skepticism that they deserve
I hope he does 2, 3, 4 and maybe 5. I’m nor worried about points 1 and 7 and 6 and 8 aren’t his fault. No one is forcing people to have bad rhetoric or be hysterical. If you care about those things you should take it up with the government bureaucrats working against and to divide citizens, the news media and social media companies.
In what way? I mean, let's not talk about the music fiasco, luckily we revolted and fixed that. I don't recall where they landed on the funny outro's, or whatever they're called, but I loved them and think it sucks that they're trying to get rid of one of the best things about their podcast because it's hard? But, those are minor quibbles. I guess you're talking about the guest host episodes? They're not my favorites (besides Ben), I think they want to be seen as more serious. But, honestly, I think we listen to them because they have good content AND because they're funny. They shouldn't remove the funny part, IMO. Even so, those episodes are rare.
I mean it's pretty obvious what I am talking about but it's not my job to educate you (I'm on vacation, I will educate you between September and June, but not July or August)
Oh dangit, consider me sufficiently humbled and humiliated. What can I do for penance? Damnit, I'm making it about me again, aren't I? I guess I should read a book or something.
To be serious though, I think they had a very simple system that worked, then the music intifada happened, and things went a little weird. I'm very much a believer in "if it isn't broke don't fix it" and don't think they should have changed the show much, if at all. Maybe some slight tweaks here and there, I'm not against interview shows but I don't think the interview shows add to the show content much.
Absolutely agree with you on this topic. My son was diagnosed with autism when he was 2. It's not a fucking superpower, and he is high functioning. The term is considered ableist in the neurodivergent community. I did find the idea of neurodiversity appealing at first, but then I joined my local SEPAC and saw these tired mothers at the SSI presentation asking about the housing option for their children after parents are dead.
There so many more annoying aspects of neurodiversity activism. For instance the endless controversy over the color blue and puzzle piece. Then there is autism speaks that's hated by activists. The claim the major reason is, AS uses 90% of donations on itself. That is not true, I made an effort and looked at their financial reports that are available online. They function just like an average non profit.
Then there is this issue with the cure. How dare scientists work on the cure for autism, it's who we are. I honestly don't get it. Say there is a cure, well, don't fucking take it if you don't want to.
They also fight the ABA therapy. My son had it, it's fine, he learnt useful skills that are easier for typical kids. Such as, not hitting and biting kids, how to not ramdomly run away from your teacher , how to try new food etc.
Yes, I've heard high functioning autistic people argue against ABA as they explain what it is like to experience for children with autism. As if they are qualified to speak for people who can't speak or take care of themselves. One of the hallmarks of autism is that they don't understand theory of mind, that is, they don't understand how other people think. So if someone is truly autistic, they have trouble understanding other people's thoughts and actions. So how does an autistic person at an Ivy League school understand my son's struggles better than I do, when I've been with him every day for the last 29 years?
The issue is the DSM-5. When they got rid of the Asperger's diagnosis and just started calling everything autism, it confused people about what autism is. Spoiler alert: it's not Extraordinary Attorney Woo.
It's been my understanding, some skills come naturally to typical kids, but not to autistic, even high functioning. For instance, my son used to do a lot visual stimming. Maybe it's fine and great and makes him feel better, but it also prevented him from learning, paying attention to the teacher etc. ABA did help with that. Maybe it was harmful in some way, short term? I don't know, thinking guide to autism would probably call it autistic abuse. Essentially my goal as a parent is to make sure he gets educated, able to get a job and get by. Maybe even enjoying his life, having relationships.
He also liked to vocalize, like beatboxing, also stimming I guess. But he was doing it at school in the classroom. What is solution here? Autism acceptance? It is a disruptive behavior that needs to be addressed, some would probably consider autistic abuse as well.
I am in the mental health field. There’s a therapist I went to grad school with who is trying to be a influencer/“neurospicy” activist and I check her instagram sometimes. One of her big platforms is how ABA therapy needs to be “dismantled” because it’s basically eugenics? I hate it here.
as far as i know ABA is the only evidence based therapy right now. If they want to dismantle it, what do they suggest sped departments and private companies use?
as long as behavioral goals are reasonable (approved by parents), i don't see what the issue with it is. Advocates claim it consists of positive AND NEGATIVE reinforcement, but there isn't a negative reinforcement, other than maybe ignoring undesirable behavior. It's less of negative reinforcement than the typical parenting technique - yelling at your child to go brush their teeth or do their homework
It makes life harder, is was it does, like any disability. My son is fine, not even on IEP anymore, and it still hard. Some kids from his pre-k are in specialized or medical private schools now, and they are not even intellectually delayed at all.
My son is not intellectually disabled but cannot understand emotional cues even though he’s over 30. He cannot bear unusual noises, situations, lights etc. Unfortunately he also had encephalitis at age 20 which left him with some brain injuries and seizures.
He is doing better. He can say ‘I love you’ which to me is wonderful even if he doesn’t fully understand
Yes I was going to make a comment about the caregivers of the severely autistic. I take care of my mother due to her stroke and other physical disabilities and I have to attend training every year (in a couple weeks now in fact) that the state requires for caregivers. So I get to meet a lot of parents and other loved ones caring for the severely autistic and yes, they have a weariness that is difficult to put into words. The autistic trenders will rarely if ever find themselves face to face with these caregivers. Or do the job they do, which only ends with death or institutionalization... And then death. 😔
There’s a real irony running through that of being incredibly judgemental of any parents who don’t subscribe to their approach to the point of claiming parents are actively harming child they will have never met, whilst at the same time presenting themselves as understanding that individual circumstances differ.
I don’t even fully agree with their first premise, that we all agree that the basics of good parenting are making your children feel safe and loved. I do think those things are important, but personally I think that the basics of good parenting are teaching your kid that their life has a purpose, and that they are capable of pursuing that purpose and despite the fact they will not always be safe in all situations and will not always be loved by the people they want to love them.
My daughter often babysits for a family with two very autistic kids. One of them is non-verbal and she has to be extra vigilant that he doesn't choke to death because he put something non-edible in his mouth when she wasn't looking (these aren't young kids at this point). It makes me mad when I hear about these activists who make no effort to distinguish the gradations present for people.
Yeah we’re in the same boat as you. Our son is 8 and was diagnosed when he was 2 as well. He’s high functioning and is actually very extroverted and social but he still has a lot of challenges that we need to help with. We’ve also put a shit ton of money into private therapy for him, I think that has helped a lot.
But the self-diagnosed influencers still make me very angry.
100% true, wild story: I attended middle school in northwest Ohio in the 90s and every year we had a "Handicapable Week," where every day we had different activities to pretend we had disabilities (on one day you try to navigate school in a wheelchair, on one day you navigate school with a blindfold, etc. Literally 500 comfortable white kids cosplaying disability for a week because "empathy." But there was no ramp or elevator, so the girl in my grade who was actually in a non-motorized wheelchair had to rely on other kids to carry her up the stairs if she had to go to the upper floor.
I know you’re kidding, but comedian Graham Kay’s podcast has just that title. He’s got a brother on the spectrum and has some fun material. Worth a look if he passes through your area!
This is a great episode! Really hits home for me too. My mom worked at a county “workshop” for 20 years and also job coached adults with disabilities. For a couple years I worked at the “clients” ( unfortunately that was the all encompassing term in the 70s and 80s) group homes, workshops, and on job sites.
The work we did was contracted out. For example we would separate ads from newspapers for recycling. We stacked lumber at a lumber yard. We had cleaning crews.
The work we did was 100% dedicated to making the “clients” feel like they had worth and were contributing to their community. I was young and naive, but I don’t ever recall people being taken advantage of by companies we contracted for. Most, if not all of the people I worked with received disability money from the state, lived in subsidized group homes. Money wasn’t a huge concern. Being part of the community was the concern.
I loved a lot of the clients (some of them had known me since I was little). They LOVED being included in the community. I would take them to my parents house to raid the fridge or just hang out when I was working at group homes. We’d go goof around and parks and the mall. (And there were lot of clients in group homes with severe disabilities) Long story short..these people had lives. A lot of the clients were older and my mom told me that they had been institutionalized as young adults, abused by parents, etc. The clients with good parents were so thankful for the help and the lives their children had open to them.
To be clear…the workshops and job settings weren’t perfect, but what was offered to these adults, in most cases i think they would agree, was exactly what they needed.
The person or group that is advocating to put an end to workshops because of the pay is completely and utterly missing the point of the whole system and that’s a real bummer.
The other thing is is that they made too much money they would lose benefits, and so some of the pay is deliberately done that way to protect people who still need Social Security and other stuff
Yeah in my early 20s I never even thought of that lol. Good point. I have known a few people who toed that line and never thought the same concept would apply to the adults I worked with
Great points. I wonder whether some of these minimum-wage activists, in addition to being unfamiliar with these jobs' purposes, are also the type of progressives who fixate on transfer payments and/or UBI in part because they think it's good when people don't work. Whereas most of us want to feel like we're doing useful work, and in the right circumstances it can be a great thing to facilitate that experience for disabled people.
As a kid, I had a best friend who had a lot of responsibilities in her large household and, when I visited, she'd try to spare me the work by, for example, telling me I didn't need to help with dinner or the dishes. Her mom finally intervened and said, "Give Jane something to do. She wants to feel useful."
As a diagnosed autistic person, I LOATHE this culture of 'self-diagnosis is equally valid' that has become normal. Maybe I'm cynical but I've always assumed it's a lot of folks cosplaying autism for 'cool points'.
I imagine it's vaguely similar to how I, a celiac (diagnosed via biopsy, the gold standard) feel about "gluten sensitive" people. Some people probably really do feel better on a gluten-free diet, whether because of the lack of gluten or because it just forces them to avoid a lot of processed food, but my knee-jerk assumption is that they want to feel special. Probably unfair, but so many of those types of people make it harder on those of us who really, genuinely need to avoid the devil's protein molecule.
And yet the availability of gluten-free options in restaurants and grocery stores has dramatically increased because of the increased demand. In this way, it helps rather than harms people with genuine intolerance. My problem is when certain allegedly GF people make “exceptions”, and create the impression that this is an option for all of us, and it isn’t.
As an anti-obesity activist I'm always amused when I see fat people who self-diagnose with "gluten sensitivity" or celiac disease. True celiacs are almost never obese or overweight! In fact, that's how it's often discovered--when a child is underweight.
I remember an event I reluctantly went to at a "Reform" synagogue. The didn't care about serving Kosher food there, but they announced that they now had "gluten free" options at this reception. Upon this annoucement, a table full of extremely fat women applauded. I knew they weren't really celiac because they were fat! That was one of the last Reform events I ever participated in. It bothered me that they rejected Jewish laws of kosher eating, but were perfectly OK with "culturally appropriating" the diet of people afflicted with celiac disease. If they're not going to follow the laws of kashrut on the basis that it isn't necessary or is obsolete, why follow other arbitrary rules? They also liked to have "fair trade" products, etc.
If you're going to follow some artbitrary rule that makes no practical sense, why not be Jewish and follow the rules of kashrut?
To be fair, it's usually undiagnosed (or just noncompliant) celiacs who are super underweight. Celiacs who adhere to a strict gluten-free diet can get overweight just like anyone else, since if you're not eating gluten your digestive system will behave pretty much normally.
Weird synagogue though. I'm Reform, but my shul doesn't allow non-kosher food. Seems pretty basic for, you know, a Jewish institution.
A GF diet is really helpful for people with IBS and it is medically recommended to people post Cdiff infection who often experience post infection IBS.
It is. Take away the privilege discourse and the desperate need to show you're more marginalized/less privileged than cis heterosexist able-bodied white men, and a lot of this too-online self-diagnosis goes away.
I mostly agree with you, but it took me 2 years and $700 to get diagnosed, so if someone actually needs help/support but can't access a diagnosis, I say we still help her or him. "Help" in the form of practical life skills advice, not online pandering, of course!
I think it’s the thing people spring for when ambiguous queered heterosexuality doesn’t quite stand out anymore. One of my south Asian friends now thinks she’s autistic because she’s an introvert who has never lived away from home and thus cannot socialize.
Same here! An acquaintance who is a therapist told me several months ago that she diagnosed herself as "AuDHD," a term I hadn't heard before. I suppose her self-diagnosis is more valid because she's a therapist? Ugh, no.
One day a friend and I went through the list of autism symptoms and yup, literally any woman could check almost all of those off. I have posted about this before on the Wed open thread and someone replied suggesting that indeed, my post showed that I exhibit signs of ASD and should take the quiz she linked to! No no no! I could go on and on with examples of ADHD friends, conversations about ASD, etc....it's wild!
A friend of mine diagnosed herself and went on to heavily imply I was autistic, so I took a LOT of questionnaires and told her that I wasn’t, and that the masking-related questions were particularly not me. Then she decided I was just an autistic person who’d never masked. Get a positive on the questionnaire? You’re autistic! Get a negative on the questionnaire? You’re still autistic! I gave up on explaining myself at that point.
Great ep guys! This is a subject I think about a lot for a variety of reasons, and it's definitely a complex one.
One of the other parallels I've noticed between the autism boom and the current state of trans is that clinical diagnosis is sometimes not a guarantee of quality/accuracy. I should clarify that what I'm about to discuss applies to Level 1/high functioning/Asperger's type autism only.
There are some incredible clinics out there, but then there are ones that are VERY social justice focused and, from what I've seen, focused on an affirmation model when it comes to one's neurodivergency of choice. Additionally, diagnosing a mental health or developmental condition is not like other medical tests where they're comparing your blood test results against a chart or looking at diagnostic imaging to provide a diagnosis. They can't literally look inside a person's mind (brain scan technology is still limited as to what it can show us), so they rely (ideally) on specific questions delivered via standardized testing, a detailed history, and interviews with family and friends. Sometimes, even school records are reviewed, even if the patient is now an adult. But, really, a smart and resourceful person can memorize the DSM and ADOS and seek out clinics with an affirmative model. It depends a lot on where you are located and the shape of your medical system, but people determined to get a diagnosis can get one in the US and Canada from what I've seen. All of this makes it more difficult for people who want an honest assessment so they can understand themselves better.
On the other side of the spectrum (pun intended), there are some clinicians that will not diagnose women as autistic at all. Basically "if you made it this far, you're fine" kind of thing - even if their lives are in shambles. Katie touched a bit on masking, but it's no surprise that the sex that's most socialized to be polite and accommodating will express a developmental disorder that impacts social awareness, behaviour, and functioning differently than boys. A lot of autistic girls turn their discomfort and confusion inward and become self-destructive. There's bunch of overlap between autism and eating disorders in young girls, and I'm sure most here already know about the trans connection. The somatic side of developmental and mental illness is still understudied and sometimes ignored, and in my experience the body is where a lot of the effects of these ailments show up in young girls and women. All that to say, I'm not surprised that many millennial women are being diagnosed with autism as adults because most schools were not sending kids out for assessment in the 90's unless they were extremely disruptive or impaired. Of course, this does not mean every female autism influencer is legit, but it's something to ponder.
On a final note, I think the rise of autism has a lot to do with the world in which we find ourselves. There is a strong genetic component to autism/ADHD (parents often get their diagnoses after they bring their kids in), but I think Jesse hit on something key when he mentioned that most human beings probably aren't well equipped to sit at a desk for 8 hours. I'm not saying "the culture" is causing kids to have Level 1 autism, but I'm not not saying that. Much like Jonathan Haidt discusses a link between social media and a kind of inducement of anxiety/depression, I think some of the lack of social skills and inability to self-soothe we see in some kids has direct links to social media as well as isolation early in their lives due to the pandemic. Time will tell how long these effects last, but I would hazard a guess that there's going to be some interesting studies about this in the upcoming years.
Okay - on a final, final note: I want to re-up my recommendation for Brad Troemel's recent video about the rise of autism/ADHD/other mental health identities on social media and in the culture, as it touches on these themes and I think is pretty spot on. Here's the link (it's on Patreon but there's a free 7 day trial): https://www.patreon.com/posts/106826347?pr=true
There is something to that point about "the culture" though. With ADHD as an example, Ned Hallowell has written quite a bit about "attention deficit trait" as a contextual appearance of ADHD stemming from the ways modern stressors can create ADHD-like symptoms in people without underlying biological causes for ADHD (his books "Driven to Distraction at Work" and "Crazy Busy" go into more detail about it). It's probably a lot easier for people to self-DX as "I must have ADHD" instead of 1) recognizing where the line is that clinically significant ADHD begins and/or is different from other conditions and 2) grappling with the reality that the expectations of modern life that we have little control over can have profound impacts on anyone's wellbeing and there is little anyone can do to change it.
It doesn't help that the more distressing aspects of ADHD (e.g., emotional dysregulation) aren't included in the DSM so there is still misunderstanding about what ADHD actually is and what stimulants do for people with executive function impairments. For example, ADHD emotional dysregulation can be misdiagnosed as a mood disorder, but the fundamental difference is that in ADHD the emotions would be rational reactions to the context, just more difficult for the individual to regulate and process so they may feel and express these emotions more extremely and impulsively. In ADHD, they'll consistently have this dysregulation with the highs/lows varying based on the situation, whereas in mood disorders the emotional extremes won't be related to the situation, coming and going in episodes instead. Like with autism, this type of misunderstanding leads to misdiagnosis or under-diagnosis in women, so awareness has certainly helped get people treatment who needed it... and given the "ADD culture" Hallowell describes, awareness might also have fed some over-diagnosis in people without underlying ADHD.
The Hans Asperger is a nazi thing is an absolute trip - I'm on my phone so I don't have links to all the papers, but I can pull them up later if anyone is interested. (Also please forgive the typos)
The short version goes something like this (there might be a few timeline inaccuracies here, but this is the gist of it)
One single medical historian from Austria, Dr Herwig Czech, writes a 2018 paper which argues that Hans Asperger was influenced by Nazi psychiatry, based on his work in Viennese archives. Czech's research interest is Nazism and medicine, and this paper makes his career. Asperger's legacy was overly sanitized, so talking about this kind of stuff is a good thing! Czech has clear evidence that two severely disabled (but not autistic) children that Asperger saw as patients were institutionalized with his signature (on the request of the parents), and were later killed in the Aktion T4 program. Czech argues that Asperger knew this would happen - though there is no documentary evidence he did know of Aktion T4 - based on the testimony of other staff that everyone knew this is what was happening.
But then things go off the rails a bit. Somehow the nuanced paper that argues off of semi-credible insinuations turns into a blockbuster, with two pop history books written on Czech's research. They're not great (Edith Sheffer's Aspergers Children is atrocious - it's an act of journalistic malfeasance) . Interestingly Czech refused to share any primary sources with Steven Silberman, the Neurotribes author, at the time. The argument mutates in the popular imagination from "influenced by Nazis" to "sent the bad not useful autistics to the death camps". If you remember the previous ep on presentism, you can guess exactly how this happened.
However, scholarly debate is still ongoing around this, and has been even from the very beginning. There's a growing body of papers, including from former colleagues of Asperger's, that are pushing back on Czech's conclusions, and also at least one grad student who is translating more of Asperger's written works into English.
What's really interesting to me, is thst every time Czech is disagreed with, he writes a truly venomous and unhinged response to the journal, where he insults both the authors of the papers he disagrees with and the journals' peer review process. It's way out of line with academic norms for history (I checked with a friend of mine who is a pubished and working historian/professor)
Ernst Tatzer, Werner Maleczek, Franz Waldhauser - An assessment of what Hans Asperger knew about child euthanasia in Vienna during the Nazi occupation (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apa.16571) (Note that these guys include former colleagues of Asperger, so they have a vested interest. This is the most recent paper)
See also the special issue in Monatsschrift Kinderheilkunde, 2021 (all in German, but easily readable in google translate. It has a balanced set of papers which are really interesting on the whole subject)
Anyway, what we know about Asperger is that he never joined the Nazi party despite it being extremely advantageous to his career to do so. He was most likely very conservative, and staunchly catholic based on his affiliations. There is no evidence he was ever involved with Aktion T4, outside of the tenuous connection with the two little girls who sadly died at Am Spiegelgrund.
Thanks for this! I've heard the story around Asperger is way more complex than "He was a Nazi!" and I'm not surprised. I really hate the practice of looking backward and removing all important context just to pass judgment on historical figure. Especially when it's used to partially* justify decisions like doing away with the separate categorization within autism.
*I know this wasn't the only reason that decision was made, but Asperger being a Nazi is the number one reason I've heard repeated as to why this had to happen by non-clinicians and I'm sure the rumour helped a bit with pushing it through
The hilarious part is it had absolutely nothing to do with Aspergers being removed from the DSM. DSM 5 was released in 2015, Czech's original paper was in 2018.
The reason it was removed is twofold: one was that non-specialist psych clinicians could not reliably differentiate between Aspergers, high functioning autism, and Pervasive Development Disorder NOS, so clinically it wasn't working out.
The other reason which is less well-documented because all the blogs are gone, is that states were refusing services for the Asperger dx because it wasn't enough of a disability. So these kids were missing out on social skills training, occupational therapy etc that would have really improved their outcomes.
That's interesting about the timing! I guess I would amend to say that it helped support the change in non-clinical circles and ensure there was no backlash when the limitations of removal became clear culturally, though it likely played a small role if any.
The service access issue is the one thing that's turned my head about being not in favour of the removal of Asperger's from the DSM. I do think it would make more sense to expand services rather than change the categories, but things are rarely that simple.
Thank you for the update on the Dr. Herwig Czech papers. I read Neurotribes after listening to Stella O’Malley say it was the best book on Autism during an early episode of Gender, A Wider Lens on ASD. And especially after a teenager I know was super upset by the adults using the term Asperger and high functioning to describe someone. The Nazi Doctor story is big on social media I take it.
The funny thing was the next day I was at a party and a guy in his 50’s described himself as having Asperger’s.
It's huge on social media - any dissent is treated as if you're standing between a time traveller's bullet and Hitler.
I've actually gone back to saying I have Aspergers to differentiate myself from the neurodiversity movement, and also because it's easier for non terminally online people to understand.
Do these people think that non-autistic people are all just basic bitch knuckleheads? As if autistic people are uniquely able to make observations about the world and infer the principles of physics that explain what they see.
Has anyone read anything good about the topic of why there is so much overlap between autism and trans identity?
Yes, many of them sincerely seem to think that neuronormals are empty sacks of fluid with no interior life. No wonder they are so determined to identify as otherwise.
Developmental pediatrician I know thinks so many autistics are trans because of how accepting and welcoming the trans community is. A lot of these kids lack social skills, are bullied at school, don't have friends, don't play team sports etc
Yes, I think that’s precisely it. Labeling yourself is a low-cost way of saying you’re not like the other girls, you’re special and should be treated as such.
If “these people” are all autistic then they probably genuinely do not have a good understanding of what it’s like to be neurotypical, or anyone else really. That’s one of the symptoms of autism.
I think it gets lost in comment threads about this issue is that high functioning autistic people still have autism and they’re going to say and do things that you and I think are odd.
I find the word kike almost hilariously outdated. Like somebody wearing a pinstripe suit and fedora just appeared from 1926 to hit me with a dead mackerel. It's not pleasant, but I'm too baffled and amused to be really offended.
I feel similarly about Paki. My sisters and I use it almost as a joking nickname. I feel like it hasn’t been used as an actual slur since croquet was hip.
I was diagnosed with autism as a child, but I didn't realize it because my mother never told me until somewhat recently. I did exhibit a lot of strange behavior, like rocking around all the time and trouble socializing.
According to my mother, she "ripped up the piece of paper" (as she calls it), after they told her I likely wouldn't graduate high school. She is an Latina immigrant so has a healthy amount of skepticism of these kinds of diagnoses (I feel qualified to make that generalization).
I did graduate, and went to college and have my own place in Manhattan, so I'm doing fine.
I have to wonder if sometimes these sorts of things could become self fulfilling prophecy, as you allude to at the end of the episode. I wonder if my mother had not "ripped up the piece of paper" if I'd have been as successful.
My parents did the same thing. Also first-gen immigrants. Also had a HS teacher that told my mother I was too effed up to succeed in school. But not knowing what was 'wrong' with me caused problems later in my life that I am very fortunate to have been able to overcome, pretty much purely through family help. I don't pretend at all that I could make it without accommodation/support of some kind.
It enrages me that some people think neurotypicals trying to offer that are just being ableist. They are throwing the folks less 'functioning' than themselves under the bus, and for what?
. . . "Maybe that's just what happens when you're homeschooled."
Unironically yes for a lot of us, I say as a formerly homeschooled kid who couldn't identify a single Beatles song until, at age 24, I fell for a cute John Lennon obsessive.
I'll be honest, I am a little fed up with fellow homeschool alums who diagnose themselves with autism on the basis of feeling awkward and having certain obsessions. You're not necessarily autistic, you're just a weirdo like me who spent your youth reading odd books and playing in the woods while you waited for the neighbor kids to get out of school at 3:00.
You can spend your life telling everyone you have the latest trendy diagnosis. Or you can do what I did: borrow your friend's dad's Beatles collection, memorize all the songs, and marry the John Lennon obsessive. For my money, the latter option is the more fun way to be a weirdo. At least, it makes the road trips go by.
I thought the "beetle" answer was kind of charming, and I loathe scoffing at people because "everybody knows" this or that. But tangentially, I braced myself when they brought up Aella again. She is not just inherently interesting because she does "out there" shit, and frankly I feel irresponsibly complicit in the attention economy every time she comes up in this podcast. Not that that's a bad thing I guess.
Here's the other thing, she's a internet micro celebrity who basically has a shtick. Meaning, she's incentivized to act this way for whatever character it is she's invented or curated.
I’m in my mid twenties and it’s depressing to me how many of my friends are getting into the “self diagnosed Autism” phase. My brother is autistic with pretty severe challenges, and it’s like… I don’t know, this weekend my dad spent the morning of his 61st birthday trying to stop my brother from choking on his tongue during a seizure. It wouldn’t be my brothers only seizure during the weekend either. And then the group chat I’m in with my friends has several people sharing quirky memes about how their autism made them watch their favorite movie over and over (truly it’s inspiring how these people power through such challenges) Anyway this comment is probably TMI but I literally have no place else to vent about this haha
Your family sounds very similar to mine, only I’m the mom in this scenario. I’m glad you commented because it’s always good to hear from siblings…your (and my daughters’) experience is unique and valuable and deserves its own attention. My son has seizures too…they can be scary and tough on the whole family. I wish you and your family well.
I imagine it’s ten times harder as a parent than as a sibling, though. Decisions around medications and therapies are so stressful, but nobody expects the sibling to be the one who makes the final call. Massive respect for my parents and for you for doing what you do. There’s just such a lack of answers about so many key questions, and the stakes are always so high. sometimes the most you can do is take it day by day… I will keep your son and the whole family in my prayers.
Thank you; it’s honestly so difficult because I feel like, extremely guilty sharing stuff like this with people I know in real life. I love my brother and I know if I were him it would suck if people went around constantly talking about how hard it was to deal with me in my worst moments. But also I feel like people have totally lost touch with just how bad living with autism can be
For anyone who is treating this like a game in your presence, I wouldn't hesitate to let them know the full extent of what you are going through. I dislike this "spectrum" thing and I don't know why we aren't allowed to differentiate between high-functioning people and people with severe disabilities like your brother. I really appreciate Katie addressing this fully towards the end of the podcast.
It’s so difficult because they buy into the identity politics stuff so much. And they really do think they have autism! So to them, it would be equally as cringey as a white person “who has black friends” lecturing a black person on racism. And I feel like I’m at such a disadvantage because the stuff that you go through dealing with someone with high support needs is like, so intense it pretty much kills the entire conversation. I already know that the response will be: “wow nina that sounds awful, but you know just because your brother has higher support needs doesn’t mean that I can’t talk about *my* experiences with autism…” It really sucks, but people aren’t exactly eager to hear stories about your brother assaulting your grandma at thanksgiving. And even if they were, I still don’t know if it’s like, fair to him if I go around telling everyone about how hard he is to deal with during his meltdowns. That’s why I plan to keep my rants to the BARpod comments. Anyway thank you so much for taking the time to read and respond to me, sorry I probably could’ve made this point in half the space lol
This reminds me of when I tell someone about my Mom with schizophrenia and then people are like "yeah, my Mom is crazy too, she really likes collecting salt shakers!"
I wish I could offer you more than just a cliche, but yeah. Dealing with this stuff is genuinely heartbreaking and isolating and terrible. And that doesn’t mean you don’t love them, but… yeah. I’ll keep your mom in my prayers.
Nah that’s the point here. It’s hard for me to say you should be offended by your friends because I call everyone and everything retarded.
You SHOULD be offended that your friends are obviously lame, stupid, no personality having band wagoners. Seems like a character flaw to pretend to have a disorder that makes life pretty much unlivable for some people so you can justify your shitty cringe quirks and other habits so you can seem interesting.
Good luck with your shitty lolarentIsoweirdandquirky? friends.
The way modern autism activists completely ignore the needs of parents drives me absolutely nuts. It’s so entitled. They act like it’s nothing for parents to give up their entire lives, including their old age, caring for a child the way you’d care for a toddler.
That is an enormous sacrifice that no parent bargained for.
It can be complicated for siblings too. One of the first things that gave me pause about a lot of this was seeing people online get rabidly angry that a support group for kids who had severely autistic siblings even existed. They thought that no resources should ever be given to it and had an attitude of "only our (autistic) suffering is real."
While I would agree that it is a huge sacrifice, people who want kids should consider the fact that there is no prenatal test for autism, including severe autism. People who chose to have kids are in essence, choosing that life if their child turns out to have severe autism.
Just pointing out that people should reconsider having kids if they cannot care for a disabled one. I’m not having a second biological child because autism runs in my family and I got lucky with my son. I have no desire to try that luck again.
It's weird to me that Jesse and Katie are acting surprised at the absurd, unpronounceable neo-IPA spelling of Native American words since that has very much been a thing for years, especially in the Pacific Northwest and Canada. Kʰunamokwst Park could easy be spelled "Canamockst" which is exactly how it's pronounced in English and which is no more difficult to pronounce than Multnomah or Clackamas or any of the other Native derived names there or anywhere.
It feels like a bizarre woke attempt at gatekeeping (you can't pronounce "Hodínöhšö:ni:h"? Racist!) while simultaneously other-ing Native Americans as speaking some insane, garbled Klingon language that can't possibly be rendered correctly in the imperalist Latin alphabet, which somehow works just fine for every other language family on earth.
I 100% agree. It's either deliberate gatekeeping on the part of the most ideologically-motivated activists, or well-meaning but ill-judged insistence on linguistic accuracy.
Shoutout to the jargonized Haudenosaunee! (It would maybe be better transliterated as Howdinoshownee, but Hodínöhšö:ni:h is absurd.)
Native American languages didn’t have a written component like with some other native languages (some Latin American tribes)…so what is the point of trying to write it (for the layperson) in a way that is so difficult to pronounce?
Place names are often spelled differently than they’re pronounced. Why is Worcester spelled that way? It’s tradition. The way we pronounce different letters change over time and depending on context.
Native Americans were not writing in a Latin alphabet. These name spellings were invented by white Americans with suspect incentives. It's bullshit. And even if it was invented by English-speaking people who are fully Native, it's still performative bullshit.
I agree that it's been a thing for years in certain circles, but I think it's moved into overdrive comparatively recently between mainstream news organizations increasingly adopting the practice of using them (with, of course, usually no pronunciation guide next to the term) and the National Parks Service and other federal agencies replacing names on various sites with them.
My wife helps a friend of hers with two moderately autistic kids who are not likely to ever be able to live on their own, and the idea that their experience is the same as someone with extremely mild autism or severe, non-verbal autism is just ridiculous.
I remember the idea of "indigo children" being a thing in the late 90s/early 2000s, where people claimed that their children were weird and special because they had an indigo aura which meant that they were all the things on those ecstatic lists of "signs you may be autistic." Everyone wants to be special I guess.
Holy shit, the Indigo Child thing! I grew up in the 90s/early aughts in a little artsy town full of hippies and various flavours of self-proclaimed psychics/mystics/healers/shamans. I went to school with kids whose moms insisted they were Indigo, and boy were they all little shits. I'd completely forgotten about that.
The Indigo Children was a very popular book in the New-Age-y town library where I worked. I wonder how many of those Indigo kids grew up to be autism influencers.
Honestly, you guys are one of the VERY FEW people who have done the following:
1. Seen the insanity sometimes present on the left.
2. Not let that turn you almost completely to the right and recognize the many ways your principles still keep you wishing for progressive policies.
It's honestly refreshing and I'm getting a little tired of all my heterodox podcasts just becoming people who say "it's fine if Trump wins."
All this to say, I wouldn't mind if you cover politics some.
Oh my god, I love you. Exactly. The fact the far-left is insane is not reason to join the authoritarian right.
I will say I absolutely agree with you guys on this point and I am impressed with Katie and Jesse for not going down that route.
One thing I’ve been most disappointed by in life is joining this group and discovering most BARPod listeners are at best right-wing loons. At worst, political nihilists who want to watch the world burn for LOLz.
It’s nice to see some people understand it’s possible to oppose far-left nonsense and still be liberal.
Seriously? You think that describes most commenters here? I might say that about the Free Press comment section (it’s a horror show), but I think most commenters here are variations on Jesse and Katie: People who used to be very liberal and/or big-P Progressive and/or leftist who became disillusioned by the extremists and the ridiculous aspects of the culture wars, but who actively resist going over to the right wing because it doesn’t align with our values at all and we resent how craziness on the left makes the right sometimes look like the more reasonable side. Youth gender medicine is probably the prime example. As a result, we’re in a tough place, but we don’t want to burn everything to the ground, we just want our old friends and allies to come to their senses and not squander the very real social gains Democrats in the US (and equivalents in other countries) have made.
Well put, thank you. (And yes, your description of the Free Press commentariat is spot on - and I’m sure Bari and Nellie are repulsed by their fandom, btw. And no, I don’t blame them (Bari and Nellie) at all. I admire them. I just don’t agree with them at several points. FYI.)
Agree. I see so much conspiracy thinking among friends and family who vote D and R. Honestly listening to cult survivor podcasts is the one thing that got me through the last few years. It gives me hope that even the Truest of Believers might be pushed too far by the rules of the cult and snap out from the brain fog.
That hasn’t been my experience. The people I’m talking about think Jesse and Katie are too far-left. They moan about being “politically homeless” while consistently excusing far-right nonsense.
For example, one absolute knob said he didn’t care if abortion was banned because… it didn’t affect him or his wife. He’s not “disillusioned” or politically homeless, he’s a right-winger who — for whatever reason — refuses to identify as such.
Bad read, Noah. I appreciate your point of view, it’s giving me pause to review the situation here, but at end of day, it’s just dead wrong. What you’re describing is EXACTLY the Free Press commentators. Go check that out and report back. I’ll wait…
They are far, far from the majority here.
You're describing Free Press comment section, not barpod.
That anecdote is meaningless and every comment section has ridiculous people in it.
How is this an example of a ‘right winger’? Right wingers normally base their anti abortion stance on what they conceive of as moral or religious reasons (eg. “avoid terminating innocent life” or “don’t cancel souls”) I don’t think I’ve ever heard a right winger justify an anti abortion stance on the fact that it doesn’t affect them.
Perfectly sums it up for me too!
New Zagarna just dropped!
I’m center left and you come across to me as a left wing loon so who knows.
I see less of that in the non-episode threads, but also I feel heartened a bit that people to the right, and even way further to the right than I am, will still engage with me and others who don't agree with them when we're not discussing politics, even if we really locked horns in another thread.
I lean to the Right, quasi-libertarian, and I've been a subscriber a long time. I don't think I'm a right-wing loon 😂.
Sounds like me. I guess the question is probably Trump 2024?
If yes loon.
If no you’re one of the good ones.
I’m a loon.
Right. This is a reason I'm leaning toward "continue to avoid politics." I like the mix of people and the engagement on other topics that transcends that shit; I think it's a big part of the draw of the show (to my mind anyway). I wouldn't want this space devolving into outrage over this or that take (any more than just normally happens online when you discuss anything).
Politics is the way we organize and fund society. There’s no such thing as “Avoiding politics”. Even the refusal to support any political candidate is a political decision — as if impacts how society is organized and funded
Huh?
Have you logged on to the wrong podcast?
I don’t think it is a majority BUT you are hitting on something here. There are a group of people (multiple) who will gang up on left wing perspectives in a way I don’t see for right wing perspectives.
For example:
People are not gonna get piled on for saying things that imply that all Palestinians are as bad as Hamas, but they will get piled on for saying things that imply that all Israelis are genocidal.
There are examples in other issues as well.
That's a silly example. 70% or so of Palestinians support Hamas, and put them in power. I highly doubt that 70% of Israelis are like "ya kill all the Palestinians, dat's kool." So it's a weird lefty example.
It’s not that silly. If you think that Palestinians “supporting Hamas” means they think “ya kill all the Jews dats kool” you’re being just as weird. Most support Hamas because they (incorrectly in my view, but understandably given the circumstances) believe that the Israeli army wants to kill them all or at least force them to abandon their homes/nation
Yep
I don't think it's the majority, but I have learned from reading these comments that a lot of people who describe themselves as "heterodox" are actually conservative. At least, it's a red flag.
"Right-wing loon" meaning what exactly?
If you have to ask, it’s because you are one.
You are behaving exactly like the kind of people you make accusations against, and this stupid comment is a perfect example of that.
I would fall into the political nihilism crowd. I just went on a rant here saying I don’t vote and my favorite American politician is Lori Lightfoot because she wore Rona Destroyer costume to a press conference in 2020. If the world actually started burning I would try to make money off it, they call it war profiteering and if that didn’t work just grab popcorn and enjoy the LOLz
Not sure why you'd consider that a flex.
It may look like nihilism to many but it's actually just the realization that nothing can be changed under the current circumstances because a preponderance of the voting public is fine with what we have now. Specifically anyone older than GenX is to blame: they gave us Biden and Trump and they are Biden and Trump.
Boomers got us into this mess and they simply aren't willing to step aside and allow anyone else to fix our problems. They seem to want to calcify our politics so that they can live out their remaining years with social security, medicare, and their home/profits from house sale.
They have, for example, left the planet worse off, refused to do anything about it, and have taken over the upper echelons/position of powers of institutions and refuse to retire.
Quite frankly insulting to have to watch two old men barely be able to shuffle up to the podium on debate night, both bent over, incoherent, and estranged from reality. Especially since both participants have been more or less active in shutting down any possibility for advancement of younger politicians.
I’m kind of similar but I acknowledge my detachment and cynicism comes from a deep seated fear. It sucks to not know what to believe and to second guess everything you hear…even from trusted friends and family.
My nihilism comes from paying attention too much for a long time when I was younger. Then all of sudden I just woke up and said if they aren’t going to care then why should I care.
Exactly. That is precisely the reason I really like podcast. There are too many people who say they are heterodox but are just conservatives and full of shit about being free thinkers.
Please don’t. Internet bullshit, deep dives into trans healthcare issues, and “how journalism should be done” are their niches. I think they’d be dull on standard politics (or at least would have little to add). Katie doesn’t seem that into mainstream politics, and when Jesse does he just seems to have pretty standard liberal takes for someone his age.
You couldn’t possibly be talking about the most recent thing from Sarah Haider and Meghan Daum (“A Special Place in Hell”, it’s called), could you? I still have a draft comment that I wrote (and for some reason haven’t actually posted) while listening to their—or actually, mostly Sarah’s—sorta weird spiel that basically amounts to “meh, Trump/the ‘right’ isn’t as bad as I thought and maybe they’re worth listening to”. And then Meghan will sometimes push back (albeit halfheartedly at times), but the dark, nihilistic tone of Sarah’s basic message is really what you come away with.
It’s clear that a lot of people—beyond just Sarah and Meghan—just genuinely hate crazy left-coded internet people (and they *are* insufferable!) so much that they’re willing to throw in with, or at least downplay the threat of, the modern right. It’s either naïve or contemptible, and I often have a hard time deciding which. Negative polarization is real, ladies and gents.
I always come away feeling bummed out and weirdly judged after reading/listening to Sarah Haider. I respect her journey but she really isn’t for me.
I'm a right-leaning libertarian. Definitely more right than left. It's weird to hear you call me and my friends a "threat." I think you would probably like us just fine.
I’m about 99% sure I’m not talking about you. I’m a big fan of the Fifth Column—though not their policy positions on a lot of things, but hey, who cares, I don’t think their positions are insane (usually, lol)—and have a libertarian streak myself. In fact I’d describe myself as a civil libertarian, certainly.
The people I’m talking about as a “threat” are NOT libertarians: “groyper” types, Bannon types, various other misfits and malcontents who have glommed onto Donald Trump’s personality cult. These people aren’t big on liberties, civil or otherwise; in fact, a lot of them seem to really get off on telling other people what to do, especially if they can be gratuitously cruel about it. I don’t even feel this way about normal (circa 2010 or whenever) Republicans; I definitely didn’t want Romney to win in 2012, but I wouldn’t have been extremely concerned about it the way I am in 2024.
Frankly I’m not even that left-wing. I’d say I’m center-left: I live in NYC by choice; I believe in progressive taxation and public services—especially transit- and healthcare-related services—and the like in a way that libertarians tend not to; but I’m very opposed to the “woke” stuff, for lack of a less stupid word, and the DSA/lefty types. (AOC is my congresswoman, for instance. and I *really* want to see someone more normal and sensible successfully primary her out—or, even better, my useless, DSA-adjacent city councilwoman, Tiffany Cabán, who makes AOC look terrific by comparison.) I know and love lots of conservatives and right-wing people (I’m from Alabama, so this includes a lot of my own family, and especially my sweet late mother, God rest her Rush Limbaugh–loving soul).
So yeah, not sure if that makes my remark any less offensive to you or not, but I hope so!
I am sorry. I wasn't trying to be a d*ck! I think we all think things about the 'other side' that probably aren't true.
Absolutely. There is also a flip side of people on the left who criticise others on the left for not just focusing their criticism at the right, because they’re more ‘dangerous’.
I think it’s perfect reasonable to use your time & energy to criticise one group and not the other, but if the result of that is playing things in relation to the group you don’t talk about much, you have to start questioning people’s real values.
You read my mind. They're not the only ones, but they were very fresh in my mind.
While I loath trump, I'm not convinced his election would have much of a substantive impact on anything.
If he got tariffs through, that could certainly hurt the economy. But it would take congress to do that and if that's what republicans want, they'd do it with whomever they get in office.
Even the big "what about" I'm not so sure Trump is the key factor. Roe? Any republican president would have nominated a conservative court. They've been at it for decades. And most of the recent credit there goes to McConnell.
Just saying I'm not quite on board with the full Doom & Gloom / End of Democracy trump train.
You’re tired of your heterodox podcast hosts saying that maybe that it’s fine if someone who half the country consciously and with 8 years of full information decide to vote for as president becomes president?
Yep. Of course, I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to vote for him. And I'm all in favor of intellectual humility. But I've seen tons and tons of the pro Trump cases and have considered them and, really going on a limb here, I still think he's a really bad choice for President. I'm also allowed to think a lot about a topic and come to the conclusion that a significant amount of people are wrong.
Right I get that. And that’s fine and a respectable heterodox take. And I understand that what you’re saying is that you’re relieved to finally find a heterodox podcast that has come to the same conclusion as you.
But I just think what you’re missing in all this is the following. Most of the other formerly straight liberal/now heterodox podcasts you’re listening to aren’t “pro Trump” or “fine” that he gets elected.
All that’s happened is that they’ve realized they’ve been lied to by the MSM and DNC for years about so much (mostly about Biden’s mental state and criminal activity) and that maybe that they’ve been lying about other things too… like Trump being Hitler. And that maybe he’s just a regular politician and that if he becomes president again that’s just a lost political campaign and a majority of Americans want that and it’s not “the end of democracy”.
You must be a hit at a BBQ
I don’t talk politics or anything online in my real life. I save that for the comments section of barpod
Still why do you care so much. There are way more interesting things to do in real life or online. The internet is the greatest thing humans have ever developed and we use it for porn, animal videos, and talking politics. Grow a garden, build a model sailboat, or make a delicious meal. All of those choices will give you a sense of accomplishment
You must be extremely boring everywhere
If you’re obsessed with politics you must realize how unoriginal you really are.
I’d love to talk to this non hysterical dude or lady.
You seem to be suggesting that Trump is a “regular politician” who does not pose a real threat to democracy, but I’m unclear about your basis for that claim. Sure, escalating criticisms of Trump to comparisons with Hitler has little meaning in itself, but in what sense do you see Trump as “normal,” and what type of specific characteristics or acts would be needed to classify a politician as “abnormal” and/or as a threat to democracy?
Well I’m not the one who’s ever made the claim that he IS a unique threat to democracy or ABNORMAL. I feel like the obligation is on the people who make that claim to prove it.
I’m no Trumpist but I have never been convinced that Trump is anything out of the ordinary as a politician. He is just an exaggerated parody of one in his presentation.
He had the ultimate chance to claim power, hold onto it and be the authoritarian/autocrat/nazi/whatever during COVID. He was pretty mid. His whole presidency was mid. We lived through him being president. We will survive if he is president again.
Stop being retarded. Trump fucking sucks and I’m tired of pretending otherwise.
What an original and interesting take.
Rather have the orange guy than the dead guy tho.
And honestly I’m kinda tired of people pretending he actually sucks. My bank account suggests he was fantastic. I’m making at least 30% more money now than I was around 2020 and I’m more broke than ever, even after trying to budget better and cutting back on BS spending.
So on economics alone he’s worth some bad tweets as far as my anecdotal evidence goes. So what did he do that you hated so much? Other than being a no good racist homophobic orange monkey bastard with small hands, bad hair and a pussy grabbing problem?
"Some"?
You're making more money now, in 2024 now that Biden has been president for 3+ years, than you were in 2020 when Trump was president and that is... because of Trump? eh?
I’m making more money now because I work hard and got a better job and promotions. I’m more broke because our economy looks like my TP after a Taco Bell night because Biden can’t stop spending and throwing money at voters for their votes.
Economy was good, right?
Now is not so good, right?
What do I take from that? I know shit happens but steering the ship through the storm is kind of a presidents job and Biden caused more storms and can’t fucking walk let alone steer so…
Yeah.
He doesn't steer the ship. He's the guy at the helm yelling about how it should be steered. The US and global economy is the ocean. Yours is not a good take.
In what world is anyone forcing you to pretend otherwise?
So does Biden. Not really sure why you think there’s a “good” party. You’re getting screwed by everyone. All the time.
The only politician in the 21st century I liked was Tom Ford the mayor of Toronto. As an American there are only two things I jealous that Canadians have Tom Ford RIP and Poutine. I mean the guy was caught smoking crack with his constituents. That is being a man of the people.
If you have a thing for crackhead mayors who surprisingly enjoy support from a crackhead constituency, you will love Marion Barry.
I believe one is required to say "Mayor for Life" Marion Barry. Well, I guess, not anymore.
Ha. Did he die?
Yes, in 2014.
It isn’t the crack it is the cartoonish way Rob Ford acted that drew me to him.
That was Rob Ford. The man had high entertainment value for sure, but he wasn't a guy I'd have ever voted for.
And now we have his generally more functional and definitely less entertaining brother, Doug, as our premier. It's not ideal, in my opinion.
To be honest I don’t vote so I really don’t care all that much. I totally forgot that Harris was our VP before listening to this episode. I don’t know anything about the man other than the videos I saw of him on YouTube. He made me laugh so that is why I liked him. We have had plenty of politicians get caught on camera using drugs, but they weren’t cartoonish like him. My favorite American politician is former mayor Lori Lightfoot not because I agreed with her politics or policies she looked and acted like a cartoon villain. She was probably a horrible politician and person but she owned it so it made me laugh. She dressed up in a costume in October of 2020 as Rona the destroyer for Halloween. She was also caught red handed having an affair and using public money to buy hotel rooms and denied it the whole time. She was a cartoon and cartoons make me laugh.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPREfySoL/
https://images.app.goo.gl/3H573MDKhyi2dbQ47
https://images.app.goo.gl/x5yRwzfdWDc7z7jp7
Here’s his brother Doug accidentally eating a bee: https://youtu.be/niKv0_GPzF0?si=kFWufwOgAiUnn_bf
Rob Ford was a key figure in the War On Cars, possibly coining the term. I appreciate that because I've enjoyed many episodes of the War on Cars podcast and without Rob, they'd never have that name. He was the General Patton on the side of the cars.
Very cool I am sorry I called him Tom at first, but I am an American
Tom Ford is the fashion designer known for an obnoxious range of expensive perfumes.
Also known for at least 2 films, both of which were pretty great.
Ombre Leather smells amazing.
Still overpriced, though.
You can edit the original comment and fix it and then delete this one. Or not.
As a guy who is ABSOLUTELY going to vote Trump cuz fuck the left, I do agree with this. Their principles seem intact and I appreciate that. Jessie might have slight TDS but Katie’s been my fav anyway so that’s not hard to overlook.
I remember realizing Dave Rubin was turning super right grifter and it’s seriously off putting. Every time someone gets canceled and they immediately do a 180 instead of a 90 I throw up a little bit because I can’t respect that.
So yeah some politics is cool.
Also Trump2024.
I listened to Dave Rubin for a while. I stopped when he turned into Sean Hannity.
It is fine if Trump wins though. Can you tell me one thing that changed in your life because Trump was President?
I've been thinking about this, and there are a few answers. I'd have to check with my wife, I think we're some of the rare people who might have a worse off tax situation. I know one of my friends is like that post-divorce. I know my daughter graduating college is now concerned about abortion rights and writing off states for the job search.
But there's also the issue that government and policy is a large boat and it's often hard to point to individual president's contributions as helping or hurting. It doesn't mean they don't steer the boat and cause harm down the road. Did Biden cause the inflation? Probably, but it's also global so maybe not. Did Trump's tariffs hurt me in terms of the prices I pay? It's conceivable but I don't know.
But the bigger issue is that that very question is a bit telling. I don't just vote for my interests. I care about the overall populace and I try to vote for policies and people who will help the most people. There _are_ people who have been at the disadvantage of Trump's policies. And I happen to think more people than the alternative.
Your daughter is planning on getting an abortion? How often are careful, responsible women getting abortions?
Yeah, that's totally a good faith reading of my comment. She's just waiting to get an abortion. Can't wait for it. But has to pick the right state to get a job first. Totally what I meant.
How often are careful, responsible women getting abortions?
More often than you think.
I don’t like Trump but why isn’t it fine if he wins? What is it he’ll actually do?
Off the top of my head, I suspect he'll:
* Work on the plan to install partisan loyalists across all the civil service
* Eliminate or reduce environmental protections and contribute to worsening of global warming
* Get legal immigration caught up in the illegal immigration fears and reduce our ability to attract the kind of people our country needs
* Stop helping Ukraine and make the world safer for despots like Putin and less democratic overall
* Worsen tariffs and free trade and have higher prices for goods
* Degrade our overall rhetoric and ability to live and work together with people from the other side and even reduce the independent thinking capable in the GOP
* Solidify the Supreme Court majority that doesn't reflect the will of the people
* Contribute to deepening distrust of vital institutions, even beyond the healthy skepticism that they deserve
* and much, much more!
I hope he does 2, 3, 4 and maybe 5. I’m nor worried about points 1 and 7 and 6 and 8 aren’t his fault. No one is forcing people to have bad rhetoric or be hysterical. If you care about those things you should take it up with the government bureaucrats working against and to divide citizens, the news media and social media companies.
Yes! It's a relief, isn't it?
My sanity will be desperately clinging to BARPOD like a life preserver come election season.
This isn't election season?!
100% on this!
Totally agree. They are very authentic. Even if they have managed to butcher how they run their podcast
In what way? I mean, let's not talk about the music fiasco, luckily we revolted and fixed that. I don't recall where they landed on the funny outro's, or whatever they're called, but I loved them and think it sucks that they're trying to get rid of one of the best things about their podcast because it's hard? But, those are minor quibbles. I guess you're talking about the guest host episodes? They're not my favorites (besides Ben), I think they want to be seen as more serious. But, honestly, I think we listen to them because they have good content AND because they're funny. They shouldn't remove the funny part, IMO. Even so, those episodes are rare.
I mean it's pretty obvious what I am talking about but it's not my job to educate you (I'm on vacation, I will educate you between September and June, but not July or August)
Oh dangit, consider me sufficiently humbled and humiliated. What can I do for penance? Damnit, I'm making it about me again, aren't I? I guess I should read a book or something.
To be serious though, I think they had a very simple system that worked, then the music intifada happened, and things went a little weird. I'm very much a believer in "if it isn't broke don't fix it" and don't think they should have changed the show much, if at all. Maybe some slight tweaks here and there, I'm not against interview shows but I don't think the interview shows add to the show content much.
Absolutely agree with you on this topic. My son was diagnosed with autism when he was 2. It's not a fucking superpower, and he is high functioning. The term is considered ableist in the neurodivergent community. I did find the idea of neurodiversity appealing at first, but then I joined my local SEPAC and saw these tired mothers at the SSI presentation asking about the housing option for their children after parents are dead.
There so many more annoying aspects of neurodiversity activism. For instance the endless controversy over the color blue and puzzle piece. Then there is autism speaks that's hated by activists. The claim the major reason is, AS uses 90% of donations on itself. That is not true, I made an effort and looked at their financial reports that are available online. They function just like an average non profit.
Then there is this issue with the cure. How dare scientists work on the cure for autism, it's who we are. I honestly don't get it. Say there is a cure, well, don't fucking take it if you don't want to.
They also fight the ABA therapy. My son had it, it's fine, he learnt useful skills that are easier for typical kids. Such as, not hitting and biting kids, how to not ramdomly run away from your teacher , how to try new food etc.
Yes, I've heard high functioning autistic people argue against ABA as they explain what it is like to experience for children with autism. As if they are qualified to speak for people who can't speak or take care of themselves. One of the hallmarks of autism is that they don't understand theory of mind, that is, they don't understand how other people think. So if someone is truly autistic, they have trouble understanding other people's thoughts and actions. So how does an autistic person at an Ivy League school understand my son's struggles better than I do, when I've been with him every day for the last 29 years?
The issue is the DSM-5. When they got rid of the Asperger's diagnosis and just started calling everything autism, it confused people about what autism is. Spoiler alert: it's not Extraordinary Attorney Woo.
It's been my understanding, some skills come naturally to typical kids, but not to autistic, even high functioning. For instance, my son used to do a lot visual stimming. Maybe it's fine and great and makes him feel better, but it also prevented him from learning, paying attention to the teacher etc. ABA did help with that. Maybe it was harmful in some way, short term? I don't know, thinking guide to autism would probably call it autistic abuse. Essentially my goal as a parent is to make sure he gets educated, able to get a job and get by. Maybe even enjoying his life, having relationships.
He also liked to vocalize, like beatboxing, also stimming I guess. But he was doing it at school in the classroom. What is solution here? Autism acceptance? It is a disruptive behavior that needs to be addressed, some would probably consider autistic abuse as well.
I am in the mental health field. There’s a therapist I went to grad school with who is trying to be a influencer/“neurospicy” activist and I check her instagram sometimes. One of her big platforms is how ABA therapy needs to be “dismantled” because it’s basically eugenics? I hate it here.
as far as i know ABA is the only evidence based therapy right now. If they want to dismantle it, what do they suggest sped departments and private companies use?
as long as behavioral goals are reasonable (approved by parents), i don't see what the issue with it is. Advocates claim it consists of positive AND NEGATIVE reinforcement, but there isn't a negative reinforcement, other than maybe ignoring undesirable behavior. It's less of negative reinforcement than the typical parenting technique - yelling at your child to go brush their teeth or do their homework
Thank you for this. I love my son but his autism is a disability not a benefit
It makes life harder, is was it does, like any disability. My son is fine, not even on IEP anymore, and it still hard. Some kids from his pre-k are in specialized or medical private schools now, and they are not even intellectually delayed at all.
My son is not intellectually disabled but cannot understand emotional cues even though he’s over 30. He cannot bear unusual noises, situations, lights etc. Unfortunately he also had encephalitis at age 20 which left him with some brain injuries and seizures.
He is doing better. He can say ‘I love you’ which to me is wonderful even if he doesn’t fully understand
Yes I was going to make a comment about the caregivers of the severely autistic. I take care of my mother due to her stroke and other physical disabilities and I have to attend training every year (in a couple weeks now in fact) that the state requires for caregivers. So I get to meet a lot of parents and other loved ones caring for the severely autistic and yes, they have a weariness that is difficult to put into words. The autistic trenders will rarely if ever find themselves face to face with these caregivers. Or do the job they do, which only ends with death or institutionalization... And then death. 😔
Even some parents of profoundly autistic kids are leading neurodiversity movement, just checked and these people are still kicking https://thinkingautismguide.com/2024/06/how-autism-warrior-parents-harm-autistic-kids.html . This is one of their newer articles about parents doing things wrong
There’s a real irony running through that of being incredibly judgemental of any parents who don’t subscribe to their approach to the point of claiming parents are actively harming child they will have never met, whilst at the same time presenting themselves as understanding that individual circumstances differ.
It’s very passive aggressive.
I can't stand these people. I do think calling yourself "autism mom" is a bit cringe, but that's not harming anyone
I don’t even fully agree with their first premise, that we all agree that the basics of good parenting are making your children feel safe and loved. I do think those things are important, but personally I think that the basics of good parenting are teaching your kid that their life has a purpose, and that they are capable of pursuing that purpose and despite the fact they will not always be safe in all situations and will not always be loved by the people they want to love them.
My daughter often babysits for a family with two very autistic kids. One of them is non-verbal and she has to be extra vigilant that he doesn't choke to death because he put something non-edible in his mouth when she wasn't looking (these aren't young kids at this point). It makes me mad when I hear about these activists who make no effort to distinguish the gradations present for people.
Yeah we’re in the same boat as you. Our son is 8 and was diagnosed when he was 2 as well. He’s high functioning and is actually very extroverted and social but he still has a lot of challenges that we need to help with. We’ve also put a shit ton of money into private therapy for him, I think that has helped a lot.
But the self-diagnosed influencers still make me very angry.
I'm extremely disappointed that no one has tried to rebrand being autistic as being "autastic" to put a more positive spin on things.
*opens an Etsy shop*
Ah, like handicapable!
100% true, wild story: I attended middle school in northwest Ohio in the 90s and every year we had a "Handicapable Week," where every day we had different activities to pretend we had disabilities (on one day you try to navigate school in a wheelchair, on one day you navigate school with a blindfold, etc. Literally 500 comfortable white kids cosplaying disability for a week because "empathy." But there was no ramp or elevator, so the girl in my grade who was actually in a non-motorized wheelchair had to rely on other kids to carry her up the stairs if she had to go to the upper floor.
It’s almost like they could’ve thrown a school wide fundraiser for a chairlift instead...
I know you’re kidding, but comedian Graham Kay’s podcast has just that title. He’s got a brother on the spectrum and has some fun material. Worth a look if he passes through your area!
This is a great episode! Really hits home for me too. My mom worked at a county “workshop” for 20 years and also job coached adults with disabilities. For a couple years I worked at the “clients” ( unfortunately that was the all encompassing term in the 70s and 80s) group homes, workshops, and on job sites.
The work we did was contracted out. For example we would separate ads from newspapers for recycling. We stacked lumber at a lumber yard. We had cleaning crews.
The work we did was 100% dedicated to making the “clients” feel like they had worth and were contributing to their community. I was young and naive, but I don’t ever recall people being taken advantage of by companies we contracted for. Most, if not all of the people I worked with received disability money from the state, lived in subsidized group homes. Money wasn’t a huge concern. Being part of the community was the concern.
I loved a lot of the clients (some of them had known me since I was little). They LOVED being included in the community. I would take them to my parents house to raid the fridge or just hang out when I was working at group homes. We’d go goof around and parks and the mall. (And there were lot of clients in group homes with severe disabilities) Long story short..these people had lives. A lot of the clients were older and my mom told me that they had been institutionalized as young adults, abused by parents, etc. The clients with good parents were so thankful for the help and the lives their children had open to them.
To be clear…the workshops and job settings weren’t perfect, but what was offered to these adults, in most cases i think they would agree, was exactly what they needed.
The person or group that is advocating to put an end to workshops because of the pay is completely and utterly missing the point of the whole system and that’s a real bummer.
The other thing is is that they made too much money they would lose benefits, and so some of the pay is deliberately done that way to protect people who still need Social Security and other stuff
Yeah in my early 20s I never even thought of that lol. Good point. I have known a few people who toed that line and never thought the same concept would apply to the adults I worked with
Great points. I wonder whether some of these minimum-wage activists, in addition to being unfamiliar with these jobs' purposes, are also the type of progressives who fixate on transfer payments and/or UBI in part because they think it's good when people don't work. Whereas most of us want to feel like we're doing useful work, and in the right circumstances it can be a great thing to facilitate that experience for disabled people.
As a kid, I had a best friend who had a lot of responsibilities in her large household and, when I visited, she'd try to spare me the work by, for example, telling me I didn't need to help with dinner or the dishes. Her mom finally intervened and said, "Give Jane something to do. She wants to feel useful."
(Thank YOU!!!)
A solid 50% of my white female friends have self diagnosed as autistic, adhd, or the combo. It’s wild
As a diagnosed autistic person, I LOATHE this culture of 'self-diagnosis is equally valid' that has become normal. Maybe I'm cynical but I've always assumed it's a lot of folks cosplaying autism for 'cool points'.
I imagine it's vaguely similar to how I, a celiac (diagnosed via biopsy, the gold standard) feel about "gluten sensitive" people. Some people probably really do feel better on a gluten-free diet, whether because of the lack of gluten or because it just forces them to avoid a lot of processed food, but my knee-jerk assumption is that they want to feel special. Probably unfair, but so many of those types of people make it harder on those of us who really, genuinely need to avoid the devil's protein molecule.
And yet the availability of gluten-free options in restaurants and grocery stores has dramatically increased because of the increased demand. In this way, it helps rather than harms people with genuine intolerance. My problem is when certain allegedly GF people make “exceptions”, and create the impression that this is an option for all of us, and it isn’t.
As an anti-obesity activist I'm always amused when I see fat people who self-diagnose with "gluten sensitivity" or celiac disease. True celiacs are almost never obese or overweight! In fact, that's how it's often discovered--when a child is underweight.
I was diagnosed as an adult (became symptomatic in my early 20s), but yeah. By the time I got my dx, I was 87lbs at 5'2". Not a good look.
I remember an event I reluctantly went to at a "Reform" synagogue. The didn't care about serving Kosher food there, but they announced that they now had "gluten free" options at this reception. Upon this annoucement, a table full of extremely fat women applauded. I knew they weren't really celiac because they were fat! That was one of the last Reform events I ever participated in. It bothered me that they rejected Jewish laws of kosher eating, but were perfectly OK with "culturally appropriating" the diet of people afflicted with celiac disease. If they're not going to follow the laws of kashrut on the basis that it isn't necessary or is obsolete, why follow other arbitrary rules? They also liked to have "fair trade" products, etc.
If you're going to follow some artbitrary rule that makes no practical sense, why not be Jewish and follow the rules of kashrut?
To be fair, it's usually undiagnosed (or just noncompliant) celiacs who are super underweight. Celiacs who adhere to a strict gluten-free diet can get overweight just like anyone else, since if you're not eating gluten your digestive system will behave pretty much normally.
Weird synagogue though. I'm Reform, but my shul doesn't allow non-kosher food. Seems pretty basic for, you know, a Jewish institution.
A GF diet is really helpful for people with IBS and it is medically recommended to people post Cdiff infection who often experience post infection IBS.
It is. Take away the privilege discourse and the desperate need to show you're more marginalized/less privileged than cis heterosexist able-bodied white men, and a lot of this too-online self-diagnosis goes away.
I mostly agree with you, but it took me 2 years and $700 to get diagnosed, so if someone actually needs help/support but can't access a diagnosis, I say we still help her or him. "Help" in the form of practical life skills advice, not online pandering, of course!
Damn straight!
I think it’s the thing people spring for when ambiguous queered heterosexuality doesn’t quite stand out anymore. One of my south Asian friends now thinks she’s autistic because she’s an introvert who has never lived away from home and thus cannot socialize.
Fucking white people
Same here! An acquaintance who is a therapist told me several months ago that she diagnosed herself as "AuDHD," a term I hadn't heard before. I suppose her self-diagnosis is more valid because she's a therapist? Ugh, no.
One day a friend and I went through the list of autism symptoms and yup, literally any woman could check almost all of those off. I have posted about this before on the Wed open thread and someone replied suggesting that indeed, my post showed that I exhibit signs of ASD and should take the quiz she linked to! No no no! I could go on and on with examples of ADHD friends, conversations about ASD, etc....it's wild!
A friend of mine diagnosed herself and went on to heavily imply I was autistic, so I took a LOT of questionnaires and told her that I wasn’t, and that the masking-related questions were particularly not me. Then she decided I was just an autistic person who’d never masked. Get a positive on the questionnaire? You’re autistic! Get a negative on the questionnaire? You’re still autistic! I gave up on explaining myself at that point.
The signoffs are back! Nature is healing.
Great ep guys! This is a subject I think about a lot for a variety of reasons, and it's definitely a complex one.
One of the other parallels I've noticed between the autism boom and the current state of trans is that clinical diagnosis is sometimes not a guarantee of quality/accuracy. I should clarify that what I'm about to discuss applies to Level 1/high functioning/Asperger's type autism only.
There are some incredible clinics out there, but then there are ones that are VERY social justice focused and, from what I've seen, focused on an affirmation model when it comes to one's neurodivergency of choice. Additionally, diagnosing a mental health or developmental condition is not like other medical tests where they're comparing your blood test results against a chart or looking at diagnostic imaging to provide a diagnosis. They can't literally look inside a person's mind (brain scan technology is still limited as to what it can show us), so they rely (ideally) on specific questions delivered via standardized testing, a detailed history, and interviews with family and friends. Sometimes, even school records are reviewed, even if the patient is now an adult. But, really, a smart and resourceful person can memorize the DSM and ADOS and seek out clinics with an affirmative model. It depends a lot on where you are located and the shape of your medical system, but people determined to get a diagnosis can get one in the US and Canada from what I've seen. All of this makes it more difficult for people who want an honest assessment so they can understand themselves better.
On the other side of the spectrum (pun intended), there are some clinicians that will not diagnose women as autistic at all. Basically "if you made it this far, you're fine" kind of thing - even if their lives are in shambles. Katie touched a bit on masking, but it's no surprise that the sex that's most socialized to be polite and accommodating will express a developmental disorder that impacts social awareness, behaviour, and functioning differently than boys. A lot of autistic girls turn their discomfort and confusion inward and become self-destructive. There's bunch of overlap between autism and eating disorders in young girls, and I'm sure most here already know about the trans connection. The somatic side of developmental and mental illness is still understudied and sometimes ignored, and in my experience the body is where a lot of the effects of these ailments show up in young girls and women. All that to say, I'm not surprised that many millennial women are being diagnosed with autism as adults because most schools were not sending kids out for assessment in the 90's unless they were extremely disruptive or impaired. Of course, this does not mean every female autism influencer is legit, but it's something to ponder.
On a final note, I think the rise of autism has a lot to do with the world in which we find ourselves. There is a strong genetic component to autism/ADHD (parents often get their diagnoses after they bring their kids in), but I think Jesse hit on something key when he mentioned that most human beings probably aren't well equipped to sit at a desk for 8 hours. I'm not saying "the culture" is causing kids to have Level 1 autism, but I'm not not saying that. Much like Jonathan Haidt discusses a link between social media and a kind of inducement of anxiety/depression, I think some of the lack of social skills and inability to self-soothe we see in some kids has direct links to social media as well as isolation early in their lives due to the pandemic. Time will tell how long these effects last, but I would hazard a guess that there's going to be some interesting studies about this in the upcoming years.
Okay - on a final, final note: I want to re-up my recommendation for Brad Troemel's recent video about the rise of autism/ADHD/other mental health identities on social media and in the culture, as it touches on these themes and I think is pretty spot on. Here's the link (it's on Patreon but there's a free 7 day trial): https://www.patreon.com/posts/106826347?pr=true
There is something to that point about "the culture" though. With ADHD as an example, Ned Hallowell has written quite a bit about "attention deficit trait" as a contextual appearance of ADHD stemming from the ways modern stressors can create ADHD-like symptoms in people without underlying biological causes for ADHD (his books "Driven to Distraction at Work" and "Crazy Busy" go into more detail about it). It's probably a lot easier for people to self-DX as "I must have ADHD" instead of 1) recognizing where the line is that clinically significant ADHD begins and/or is different from other conditions and 2) grappling with the reality that the expectations of modern life that we have little control over can have profound impacts on anyone's wellbeing and there is little anyone can do to change it.
It doesn't help that the more distressing aspects of ADHD (e.g., emotional dysregulation) aren't included in the DSM so there is still misunderstanding about what ADHD actually is and what stimulants do for people with executive function impairments. For example, ADHD emotional dysregulation can be misdiagnosed as a mood disorder, but the fundamental difference is that in ADHD the emotions would be rational reactions to the context, just more difficult for the individual to regulate and process so they may feel and express these emotions more extremely and impulsively. In ADHD, they'll consistently have this dysregulation with the highs/lows varying based on the situation, whereas in mood disorders the emotional extremes won't be related to the situation, coming and going in episodes instead. Like with autism, this type of misunderstanding leads to misdiagnosis or under-diagnosis in women, so awareness has certainly helped get people treatment who needed it... and given the "ADD culture" Hallowell describes, awareness might also have fed some over-diagnosis in people without underlying ADHD.
The Hans Asperger is a nazi thing is an absolute trip - I'm on my phone so I don't have links to all the papers, but I can pull them up later if anyone is interested. (Also please forgive the typos)
The short version goes something like this (there might be a few timeline inaccuracies here, but this is the gist of it)
One single medical historian from Austria, Dr Herwig Czech, writes a 2018 paper which argues that Hans Asperger was influenced by Nazi psychiatry, based on his work in Viennese archives. Czech's research interest is Nazism and medicine, and this paper makes his career. Asperger's legacy was overly sanitized, so talking about this kind of stuff is a good thing! Czech has clear evidence that two severely disabled (but not autistic) children that Asperger saw as patients were institutionalized with his signature (on the request of the parents), and were later killed in the Aktion T4 program. Czech argues that Asperger knew this would happen - though there is no documentary evidence he did know of Aktion T4 - based on the testimony of other staff that everyone knew this is what was happening.
But then things go off the rails a bit. Somehow the nuanced paper that argues off of semi-credible insinuations turns into a blockbuster, with two pop history books written on Czech's research. They're not great (Edith Sheffer's Aspergers Children is atrocious - it's an act of journalistic malfeasance) . Interestingly Czech refused to share any primary sources with Steven Silberman, the Neurotribes author, at the time. The argument mutates in the popular imagination from "influenced by Nazis" to "sent the bad not useful autistics to the death camps". If you remember the previous ep on presentism, you can guess exactly how this happened.
However, scholarly debate is still ongoing around this, and has been even from the very beginning. There's a growing body of papers, including from former colleagues of Asperger's, that are pushing back on Czech's conclusions, and also at least one grad student who is translating more of Asperger's written works into English.
What's really interesting to me, is thst every time Czech is disagreed with, he writes a truly venomous and unhinged response to the journal, where he insults both the authors of the papers he disagrees with and the journals' peer review process. It's way out of line with academic norms for history (I checked with a friend of mine who is a pubished and working historian/professor)
Some names to look into:
Dean Falk (https://deanfalk.com/non-complicit-revisiting-hans-aspergers-career-in-nazi-era-vienna/)
Kevin Rebecchi (the grad student I mentioned) (his lit review here covers everything I attempted to here, but in more detail: https://journals.sagepub.com/eprint/GNI5T9GKY9MXMX7MBB7X/full?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0LajI7vjuaZsD-4FQtadpIuCGq-6je4YRCUGx9wV78XZEp_XPqtmlzyqc_aem_WogHs4NMLQFPClt_SR8qrQ)
Ernst Tatzer, Werner Maleczek, Franz Waldhauser - An assessment of what Hans Asperger knew about child euthanasia in Vienna during the Nazi occupation (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apa.16571) (Note that these guys include former colleagues of Asperger, so they have a vested interest. This is the most recent paper)
See also the special issue in Monatsschrift Kinderheilkunde, 2021 (all in German, but easily readable in google translate. It has a balanced set of papers which are really interesting on the whole subject)
Anyway, what we know about Asperger is that he never joined the Nazi party despite it being extremely advantageous to his career to do so. He was most likely very conservative, and staunchly catholic based on his affiliations. There is no evidence he was ever involved with Aktion T4, outside of the tenuous connection with the two little girls who sadly died at Am Spiegelgrund.
Thanks for this! I've heard the story around Asperger is way more complex than "He was a Nazi!" and I'm not surprised. I really hate the practice of looking backward and removing all important context just to pass judgment on historical figure. Especially when it's used to partially* justify decisions like doing away with the separate categorization within autism.
*I know this wasn't the only reason that decision was made, but Asperger being a Nazi is the number one reason I've heard repeated as to why this had to happen by non-clinicians and I'm sure the rumour helped a bit with pushing it through
The hilarious part is it had absolutely nothing to do with Aspergers being removed from the DSM. DSM 5 was released in 2015, Czech's original paper was in 2018.
The reason it was removed is twofold: one was that non-specialist psych clinicians could not reliably differentiate between Aspergers, high functioning autism, and Pervasive Development Disorder NOS, so clinically it wasn't working out.
The other reason which is less well-documented because all the blogs are gone, is that states were refusing services for the Asperger dx because it wasn't enough of a disability. So these kids were missing out on social skills training, occupational therapy etc that would have really improved their outcomes.
That's interesting about the timing! I guess I would amend to say that it helped support the change in non-clinical circles and ensure there was no backlash when the limitations of removal became clear culturally, though it likely played a small role if any.
The service access issue is the one thing that's turned my head about being not in favour of the removal of Asperger's from the DSM. I do think it would make more sense to expand services rather than change the categories, but things are rarely that simple.
I’d totally go for an episode on this
Thank you for the update on the Dr. Herwig Czech papers. I read Neurotribes after listening to Stella O’Malley say it was the best book on Autism during an early episode of Gender, A Wider Lens on ASD. And especially after a teenager I know was super upset by the adults using the term Asperger and high functioning to describe someone. The Nazi Doctor story is big on social media I take it.
The funny thing was the next day I was at a party and a guy in his 50’s described himself as having Asperger’s.
It's huge on social media - any dissent is treated as if you're standing between a time traveller's bullet and Hitler.
I've actually gone back to saying I have Aspergers to differentiate myself from the neurodiversity movement, and also because it's easier for non terminally online people to understand.
Do these people think that non-autistic people are all just basic bitch knuckleheads? As if autistic people are uniquely able to make observations about the world and infer the principles of physics that explain what they see.
Has anyone read anything good about the topic of why there is so much overlap between autism and trans identity?
Yes, many of them sincerely seem to think that neuronormals are empty sacks of fluid with no interior life. No wonder they are so determined to identify as otherwise.
Developmental pediatrician I know thinks so many autistics are trans because of how accepting and welcoming the trans community is. A lot of these kids lack social skills, are bullied at school, don't have friends, don't play team sports etc
Yes, I think that’s precisely it. Labeling yourself is a low-cost way of saying you’re not like the other girls, you’re special and should be treated as such.
If “these people” are all autistic then they probably genuinely do not have a good understanding of what it’s like to be neurotypical, or anyone else really. That’s one of the symptoms of autism.
I think it gets lost in comment threads about this issue is that high functioning autistic people still have autism and they’re going to say and do things that you and I think are odd.
Jesse, as a male homosexual and beneficiary of The Patriarchy, I give you permission to use the word “dyke.”
Katie, you do not need my Jewproval to say “kike,” as you seem quite comfortable saying it already.
As you were.
I find the word kike almost hilariously outdated. Like somebody wearing a pinstripe suit and fedora just appeared from 1926 to hit me with a dead mackerel. It's not pleasant, but I'm too baffled and amused to be really offended.
I feel similarly about Paki. My sisters and I use it almost as a joking nickname. I feel like it hasn’t been used as an actual slur since croquet was hip.
I had no idea that was a slur. I'm gonna guess it's a slur for Pakistanis?
Major plot point in Bend it like Beckham
Katie is very comfortable in being offensive and we love it. I am reminded of Richard Dawkins being like, "You're offended? That's not an argument."
Godless limey bastard.
Isn’t that Hitchens? Or did one culturally appropriate that line from the other?
I was diagnosed with autism as a child, but I didn't realize it because my mother never told me until somewhat recently. I did exhibit a lot of strange behavior, like rocking around all the time and trouble socializing.
According to my mother, she "ripped up the piece of paper" (as she calls it), after they told her I likely wouldn't graduate high school. She is an Latina immigrant so has a healthy amount of skepticism of these kinds of diagnoses (I feel qualified to make that generalization).
I did graduate, and went to college and have my own place in Manhattan, so I'm doing fine.
I have to wonder if sometimes these sorts of things could become self fulfilling prophecy, as you allude to at the end of the episode. I wonder if my mother had not "ripped up the piece of paper" if I'd have been as successful.
My parents did the same thing. Also first-gen immigrants. Also had a HS teacher that told my mother I was too effed up to succeed in school. But not knowing what was 'wrong' with me caused problems later in my life that I am very fortunate to have been able to overcome, pretty much purely through family help. I don't pretend at all that I could make it without accommodation/support of some kind.
It enrages me that some people think neurotypicals trying to offer that are just being ableist. They are throwing the folks less 'functioning' than themselves under the bus, and for what?
My parents refused to allow the school to assess me because they didn't believe in labels.
We all make our mistakes as parents. This is one I just don’t get.
The fear is that the school will act in a way that exacerbates the problem
"Who's your favorite Beatle?"
"The green ones with the shiny backs."
. . . "Maybe that's just what happens when you're homeschooled."
Unironically yes for a lot of us, I say as a formerly homeschooled kid who couldn't identify a single Beatles song until, at age 24, I fell for a cute John Lennon obsessive.
I'll be honest, I am a little fed up with fellow homeschool alums who diagnose themselves with autism on the basis of feeling awkward and having certain obsessions. You're not necessarily autistic, you're just a weirdo like me who spent your youth reading odd books and playing in the woods while you waited for the neighbor kids to get out of school at 3:00.
You can spend your life telling everyone you have the latest trendy diagnosis. Or you can do what I did: borrow your friend's dad's Beatles collection, memorize all the songs, and marry the John Lennon obsessive. For my money, the latter option is the more fun way to be a weirdo. At least, it makes the road trips go by.
I thought the "beetle" answer was kind of charming, and I loathe scoffing at people because "everybody knows" this or that. But tangentially, I braced myself when they brought up Aella again. She is not just inherently interesting because she does "out there" shit, and frankly I feel irresponsibly complicit in the attention economy every time she comes up in this podcast. Not that that's a bad thing I guess.
Yes, about anyone else this would have been a cute anecdote, but I never want to hear her name again.
Here's the other thing, she's a internet micro celebrity who basically has a shtick. Meaning, she's incentivized to act this way for whatever character it is she's invented or curated.
I’m in my mid twenties and it’s depressing to me how many of my friends are getting into the “self diagnosed Autism” phase. My brother is autistic with pretty severe challenges, and it’s like… I don’t know, this weekend my dad spent the morning of his 61st birthday trying to stop my brother from choking on his tongue during a seizure. It wouldn’t be my brothers only seizure during the weekend either. And then the group chat I’m in with my friends has several people sharing quirky memes about how their autism made them watch their favorite movie over and over (truly it’s inspiring how these people power through such challenges) Anyway this comment is probably TMI but I literally have no place else to vent about this haha
Your family sounds very similar to mine, only I’m the mom in this scenario. I’m glad you commented because it’s always good to hear from siblings…your (and my daughters’) experience is unique and valuable and deserves its own attention. My son has seizures too…they can be scary and tough on the whole family. I wish you and your family well.
I imagine it’s ten times harder as a parent than as a sibling, though. Decisions around medications and therapies are so stressful, but nobody expects the sibling to be the one who makes the final call. Massive respect for my parents and for you for doing what you do. There’s just such a lack of answers about so many key questions, and the stakes are always so high. sometimes the most you can do is take it day by day… I will keep your son and the whole family in my prayers.
Thank you for your kind response, it means a great deal ❤️🙏 I’ll pray for you and yours too.
Jeez, I am so sorry to hear this. It's nothing to make light of, nothing "cute" about that.
Thank you; it’s honestly so difficult because I feel like, extremely guilty sharing stuff like this with people I know in real life. I love my brother and I know if I were him it would suck if people went around constantly talking about how hard it was to deal with me in my worst moments. But also I feel like people have totally lost touch with just how bad living with autism can be
For anyone who is treating this like a game in your presence, I wouldn't hesitate to let them know the full extent of what you are going through. I dislike this "spectrum" thing and I don't know why we aren't allowed to differentiate between high-functioning people and people with severe disabilities like your brother. I really appreciate Katie addressing this fully towards the end of the podcast.
It’s so difficult because they buy into the identity politics stuff so much. And they really do think they have autism! So to them, it would be equally as cringey as a white person “who has black friends” lecturing a black person on racism. And I feel like I’m at such a disadvantage because the stuff that you go through dealing with someone with high support needs is like, so intense it pretty much kills the entire conversation. I already know that the response will be: “wow nina that sounds awful, but you know just because your brother has higher support needs doesn’t mean that I can’t talk about *my* experiences with autism…” It really sucks, but people aren’t exactly eager to hear stories about your brother assaulting your grandma at thanksgiving. And even if they were, I still don’t know if it’s like, fair to him if I go around telling everyone about how hard he is to deal with during his meltdowns. That’s why I plan to keep my rants to the BARpod comments. Anyway thank you so much for taking the time to read and respond to me, sorry I probably could’ve made this point in half the space lol
This reminds me of when I tell someone about my Mom with schizophrenia and then people are like "yeah, my Mom is crazy too, she really likes collecting salt shakers!"
I wish I could offer you more than just a cliche, but yeah. Dealing with this stuff is genuinely heartbreaking and isolating and terrible. And that doesn’t mean you don’t love them, but… yeah. I’ll keep your mom in my prayers.
Nah that’s the point here. It’s hard for me to say you should be offended by your friends because I call everyone and everything retarded.
You SHOULD be offended that your friends are obviously lame, stupid, no personality having band wagoners. Seems like a character flaw to pretend to have a disorder that makes life pretty much unlivable for some people so you can justify your shitty cringe quirks and other habits so you can seem interesting.
Good luck with your shitty lolarentIsoweirdandquirky? friends.
Thanks for the empathy retard.
Of course. Not being empathetic is retarded.
The way modern autism activists completely ignore the needs of parents drives me absolutely nuts. It’s so entitled. They act like it’s nothing for parents to give up their entire lives, including their old age, caring for a child the way you’d care for a toddler.
That is an enormous sacrifice that no parent bargained for.
It can be complicated for siblings too. One of the first things that gave me pause about a lot of this was seeing people online get rabidly angry that a support group for kids who had severely autistic siblings even existed. They thought that no resources should ever be given to it and had an attitude of "only our (autistic) suffering is real."
Yes, I wonder how many siblings of severely autistic children decide they are trans
While I would agree that it is a huge sacrifice, people who want kids should consider the fact that there is no prenatal test for autism, including severe autism. People who chose to have kids are in essence, choosing that life if their child turns out to have severe autism.
So what do you disagree with?
Just pointing out that people should reconsider having kids if they cannot care for a disabled one. I’m not having a second biological child because autism runs in my family and I got lucky with my son. I have no desire to try that luck again.
It's weird to me that Jesse and Katie are acting surprised at the absurd, unpronounceable neo-IPA spelling of Native American words since that has very much been a thing for years, especially in the Pacific Northwest and Canada. Kʰunamokwst Park could easy be spelled "Canamockst" which is exactly how it's pronounced in English and which is no more difficult to pronounce than Multnomah or Clackamas or any of the other Native derived names there or anywhere.
It feels like a bizarre woke attempt at gatekeeping (you can't pronounce "Hodínöhšö:ni:h"? Racist!) while simultaneously other-ing Native Americans as speaking some insane, garbled Klingon language that can't possibly be rendered correctly in the imperalist Latin alphabet, which somehow works just fine for every other language family on earth.
I 100% agree. It's either deliberate gatekeeping on the part of the most ideologically-motivated activists, or well-meaning but ill-judged insistence on linguistic accuracy.
Shoutout to the jargonized Haudenosaunee! (It would maybe be better transliterated as Howdinoshownee, but Hodínöhšö:ni:h is absurd.)
Native American languages didn’t have a written component like with some other native languages (some Latin American tribes)…so what is the point of trying to write it (for the layperson) in a way that is so difficult to pronounce?
To make them look exotic, obviously.
Maybe we should campaign for the press/governments to start swapping in IPA reductions of words like “McLaughlin” and “Czeslaw”...
Place names are often spelled differently than they’re pronounced. Why is Worcester spelled that way? It’s tradition. The way we pronounce different letters change over time and depending on context.
Native Americans were not writing in a Latin alphabet. These name spellings were invented by white Americans with suspect incentives. It's bullshit. And even if it was invented by English-speaking people who are fully Native, it's still performative bullshit.
You have missed the point, grandly.
I agree that it's been a thing for years in certain circles, but I think it's moved into overdrive comparatively recently between mainstream news organizations increasingly adopting the practice of using them (with, of course, usually no pronunciation guide next to the term) and the National Parks Service and other federal agencies replacing names on various sites with them.
My wife helps a friend of hers with two moderately autistic kids who are not likely to ever be able to live on their own, and the idea that their experience is the same as someone with extremely mild autism or severe, non-verbal autism is just ridiculous.
I remember the idea of "indigo children" being a thing in the late 90s/early 2000s, where people claimed that their children were weird and special because they had an indigo aura which meant that they were all the things on those ecstatic lists of "signs you may be autistic." Everyone wants to be special I guess.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_children
Holy shit, the Indigo Child thing! I grew up in the 90s/early aughts in a little artsy town full of hippies and various flavours of self-proclaimed psychics/mystics/healers/shamans. I went to school with kids whose moms insisted they were Indigo, and boy were they all little shits. I'd completely forgotten about that.
The Indigo Children was a very popular book in the New-Age-y town library where I worked. I wonder how many of those Indigo kids grew up to be autism influencers.
There's a special bird, and it's real, called an Indigo Bunting and it's pretty common in many parts of the Eastern US.
I saw one in my yard this year! They are special, that color is crazy